Virgin to lose A330's and B777's - become mid range airline - really?

[HS-TQE]

surely Bain won't be able to sell 4 of virgins B773s for anything meaningful. The used market for aircraft is apparently non-existent.

Surely would be better things to do with them.

Was reading in another forum about having an airline within an airline, sort of like Jetstar but using Qantas aircraft, at quiet times like all day Saturday & Sundays before 3pm + Monday, Friday & Saturday nights late (Monday as Tuesday is quietest day of working week, Friday night, as Saturday am no peak hour & Saturday night as not much demand early Sunday).

It was suggested, that either virgin employ crews on a part time basis, on lower pay scale or that pilots who were not employed by virgin, such as the A330 & B773 pilots, could operate the flights on some sort of charter basis, as virtually no demand for pilots anywhere for a few years.

Insurance might be complicated if pilots didn't work for airline, although airlines do dry lease(not including crews) aircraft to other airlines.

Virgin did have 60 or more flights a week Australia to Auckland & many more to other NZ ports & 20 plus to Fiji a week. Even if only dozen or so operated to Auckland, dozen or so to Fiji, it would mean a few things, that would keep frequent flyers happy

1) they could use their virgin frequent flyer points

2) they could earn more frequent flyer points

3) those with virgin credits could actually use them on some routes they actually wanted to go to.

Why do I have the feeling that this is a sock account?

 

[HS-TQE]

At the moment a Saab or dash 8 would suffice for most interstate routes in Australia.

I'd say bring back the CRJ200s (from the AN/Kendall days).. or even the ERJ145s (old SkyAirWorld charter aircraft).

 

[jakeseven7]

I'd say bring back the CRJ200s (from the AN/Kendall days).. or even the ERJ145s (old SkyAirWorld charter aircraft).

Why?

QFLink will change 20% more, still fly their planes fuller and fly the props on the smell of an oily rag while those gas guzzlers struggle to make 5 cents...

 

[HS-TQE]

Why?

QFLink will change 20% more, still fly their planes fuller and fly the props on the smell of an oily rag while those gas guzzlers struggle to make 5 cents...

Generally out of reminsicing, though I do agree.

Most scheduled operators weren't able to make the larger brothers, the E190s/CRJ900s work for the most part, pretty much leaving the former (E190) as a Charter/FIFO aircraft.

 

[Obzerva]

I'd say bring back the CRJ200s (from the AN/Kendall days).. or even the ERJ145s (old SkyAirWorld charter aircraft).

The CRJs were something "different" in the Australian skies but they weren't universally popular.

They were great for increasing frequencies on smaller routes (Melbourne - Launceston 8 times a day!) however people did find them cramped.

I think from memory at one stage they were running 5 times a day on Canberra - Brisbane but enough corporates/politicians were making noise that the the morning and afternoon peak flight reverted to a BAE146.

The CRJs wouldn't be a good fit for VA at all.

Honestly I'd say that VA needs to have someone do it's regional flying for it, looking squarely at Alliance Airlines, or if Rex's Melbourne/Sydney/Brisbane experiment doesn't work out for them, then do a deal with them.

VA focuses on 737, and charter in the meantime, until it's ready to go bigger again.

 

[Vic]

i'm struggling with the OPs suggestion of jetstar being an acceptable low cost option. IME jetstar are simply unreliable. You can book a cheap flight, but until you're sitting in the seat there is no guarantee the flight will go. simply not acceptable for any work related travel, which is likely to be the majority of travel for a very long time.

 

[Moopere]

i'm struggling with the OPs suggestion of jetstar being an acceptable low cost option. IME jetstar are simply unreliable. You can book a cheap flight, but until you're sitting in the seat there is no guarantee the flight will go. simply not acceptable for any work related travel, which is likely to be the majority of travel for a very long time.

I don't remember saying they are acceptable, not explicitly. But having travelled several LCC's across the world the experience is broadly similar. Until you get off the plane at your destination you never really know if you're actually going to get there on time ... or at all (insofar as cancellations goes).

So I guess with that as our base minimum line, where service can't really go much lower, then VA possibly positioning themselves slightly above that level and trying pretty hard to be on time and not have too many cancellations is then 'mid range' (smile).

By the by, I've had excellent experiences with 3K in Asia. Despite wearing the same JQ badge I've always found them to be quite good. So whilst I'll usually balk at taking a JQ flight unless its the most casual of casual trips, in Asia I'll take a 3K without a second thought.

 

[Vic]

I don't remember saying they are acceptable, not explicitly. But having travelled several LCC's across the world the experience is broadly similar. Until you get off the plane at your destination you never really know if you're actually going to get there on time ... or at all (insofar as cancellations goes).

So I guess with that as our base minimum line, where service can't really go much lower, then VA possibly positioning themselves slightly above that level and trying pretty hard to be on time and not have too many cancellations is then 'mid range' (smile).

By the by, I've had excellent experiences with 3K in Asia. Despite wearing the same JQ badge I've always found them to be quite good. So whilst I'll usually balk at taking a JQ flight unless its the most casual of casual trips, in Asia I'll take a 3K without a second thought.

well no, not explicitly. But that is certainly the meaning of this part of your post (implicitly)

So, not to rant on and on about things that no longer exist: Who here is likely to keep flying VA once we all get back to normal living and the airline is back up in the air with a new owner? If the subject/blog is to be believed, I can't see it gaining my interest. If I want cheap and (possibly) nasty, well, JQ, if I want to reduce nastiness levels (again ... perhaps), then spend a few dollars more and QF. If I want to spend more and get a different level of nasty .... the new VA???

My experience clearly doesn't match yours in that I've found virgin to be regularly on time, cheap and to look after customers when appropriate. Certainly not a "different level of nasty".
The same can't be said of jetstar, who are just cheap and nasty. Great jetstar is your choice, I just struggle with the suggestion of jetstar being a preferable choice to virgin.

 

[Moopere]

My experience clearly doesn't match yours in that I've found virgin to be regularly on time, cheap and to look after customers when appropriate. Certainly not a "different level of nasty".
The same can't be said of jetstar, who are just cheap and nasty. Great jetstar is your choice, I just struggle with the suggestion of jetstar being a preferable choice to virgin.

Its the confusion of which 'VA' are we talking about creeping in there VA1 or VA2?

VA1, yes, sure, I spent most of my money with them. There was a component of golden handcuffs to that, but not overridingly so.

Because of size and integrated reach the old VA was placed as the 'middle' airline but they were clearly striving and from a customer perspective (mine at least) were tangibly gaining ground on QF. The dream was for them to eventually join a global alliance and for a time I thought this was a real possibility.

The tone of things at the moment isn't the same, though goodness me the sale hasn't happened yet so I'm aware all of this is rumors and conjecture - but the tone now isn't the reality of being the middle child with a vision to move upwards. The tone appears to be ... well, we're a mid level airline who wants to stay middle, but in as much as is possible, reduce our aspirations.

So, to have a conversation in the hypothetical about that ... what does it likely mean in the real world? An airline that was already a mid tier airline, at least speaking domestically, that wants to remain mid tier and not lose face by returning to its LCC roots, yet, obviously perhaps, can't keep on doing business the way it used to do.

What does an airline in this position actually look like to a customer? JQ+?

 

[jakeseven7]

Its the confusion of which 'VA' are we talking about creeping in there VA1 or VA2?

VA1, yes, sure, I spent most of my money with them. There was a component of golden handcuffs to that, but not overridingly so.

Because of size and integrated reach the old VA was placed as the 'middle' airline but they were clearly striving and from a customer perspective (mine at least) were tangibly gaining ground on QF. The dream was for them to eventually join a global alliance and for a time I thought this was a real possibility.

The tone of things at the moment isn't the same, though goodness me the sale hasn't happened yet so I'm aware all of this is rumors and conjecture - but the tone now isn't the reality of being the middle child with a vision to move upwards. The tone appears to be ... well, we're a mid level airline who wants to stay middle, but in as much as is possible, reduce our aspirations.

So, to have a conversation in the hypothetical about that ... what does it likely mean in the real world? An airline that was already a mid tier airline, at least speaking domestically, that wants to remain mid tier and not lose face by returning to its LCC roots, yet, obviously perhaps, can't keep on doing business the way it used to do.

What does an airline in this position actually look like to a customer? JQ+?

It’s confusing I think because of how VA think they see themselves!

It’s clear that VA1 thought they were equivalent to QF....and most at AFF would say they were about QF minus 20-40% ish depending on your travel preferences.

So if VA2 in their eyes is moving down market to a more mid range airline that would mean in our eyes about a QF minus 40-60%..... which is a little more unappealing.

But the proof will be in the pudding as always....

I wonder where new REX mainline will position themselves against VA2?

 

[Moopere]

It’s confusing I think because of how VA think they see themselves!

It’s clear that VA1 thought they were equivalent to QF....and most at AFF would say they were about QF minus 20-40% ish depending on your travel preferences.

Aside from being part of a global alliance there isn't much more that I wanted from VA1.

I am usually fairly flexible timing wise, so, number of flights per day didn't really affect me. Routing didn't tend to affect me either. I used to like to whinge about the poor standard of the nibbles at the lounge, but I flew J with QF PER-BNE-CNS late last year and wasn't overwhelmed by their lounges either. To be fair, I'd have to give QF the win on general lounge quality and nibbles variety and quality, but there wasn't much in it.

So if VA2 in their eyes is moving down market to a more mid range airline that would mean in our eyes about a QF minus 40-60%..... which is a little more unappealing.

Indeed! Thats really the point of the OP.

If VA1 was indeed QF-, which is fair, then will VA2 be JQ+?

Yikes. As originally stated in the OP, if this turns out to be the case then it will be pretty hard to generate much interest from me.

I wonder where new REX mainline will position themselves against VA2?

Really hard to know whats going on there. I can't see them being of any interest whatsoever to me though unless they really inject massive investment into their operation and show up to the game with lounges, a decent J offering and a useable and useful FF scheme.

 

[UP4014]

And as VA goes downmarket, expect that QF may make some cuts it thinks it can get away with....

I would expect QF will have to make some cuts, it's not going to be business as usual for a while for many businesses.

 

[Vic]

Its the confusion of which 'VA' are we talking about creeping in there VA1 or VA2?

VA1, yes, sure, I spent most of my money with them. There was a component of golden handcuffs to that, but not overridingly so.

Because of size and integrated reach the old VA was placed as the 'middle' airline but they were clearly striving and from a customer perspective (mine at least) were tangibly gaining ground on QF. The dream was for them to eventually join a global alliance and for a time I thought this was a real possibility.

The tone of things at the moment isn't the same, though goodness me the sale hasn't happened yet so I'm aware all of this is rumors and conjecture - but the tone now isn't the reality of being the middle child with a vision to move upwards. The tone appears to be ... well, we're a mid level airline who wants to stay middle, but in as much as is possible, reduce our aspirations.

So, to have a conversation in the hypothetical about that ... what does it likely mean in the real world? An airline that was already a mid tier airline, at least speaking domestically, that wants to remain mid tier and not lose face by returning to its LCC roots, yet, obviously perhaps, can't keep on doing business the way it used to do.

What does an airline in this position actually look like to a customer? JQ+?

I'm not so sure they're a VA2 per se, but yes that is the business side of things. It's too early to know what will happen on board. As some who was able to afford virgin business for most of my flights, their isn't much difference for me, provided they keep that product.

As long as they don't start cancelling flights because we didn't sell enough seats operational reasons, like jetstar; they wont become jetstar+ IMO

 

[jakeseven7]

I'm not so sure they're a VA2 per se, but yes that is the business side of things. It's too early to know what will happen on board. As some who was able to afford virgin business for most of my flights, their isn't much difference for me, provided they keep that product.

As long as they don't start cancelling flights because we didn't sell enough seats operational reasons, like jetstar; they wont become jetstar+ IMO

VA1 consistently cancelled flights on the golden triangle when they didn’t sell enough seats but at least the frequency didn’t mean too much hassle for passengers (as did QF and JQ of course)

 

[SeaWolf]

VA1 consistently cancelled flights on the golden triangle when they didn’t sell enough seats

I think you're getting your carriers mixed up, it was QF that was accused of doing that, VA's cancellation rate was far lower.

Qantas' Sydney-Melbourne cancellations soar to 1-in-10

Qantas is cancelling almost one in 10 of its scheduled flights between Sydney and Melbourne every day but has rejected suggestions it is scratching services at short notice just because it doesn't sell enough seats.

www.smh.com.au

 

[muppet]

I think you're getting your carriers mixed up, it was QF that was accused of doing that, VA's cancellation rate was far lower.

Qantas' Sydney-Melbourne cancellations soar to 1-in-10

Qantas is cancelling almost one in 10 of its scheduled flights between Sydney and Melbourne every day but has rejected suggestions it is scratching services at short notice just because it doesn't sell enough seats.

www.smh.com.au

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story @SeaWolf

 

[antycbr]

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story @SeaWolf

All airlines would do consolidation of SYD-MEL - with the typical evening delays they’d often cancel a rotation to try to avoid more disruption and to flow pax forward, meaning that certain flights weren’t economic. The :15 and :45 min services were particularly common but given delays the flights invariably left out of order anyway! Also from OOL when there would be hourly flights the 1805 to SYD would regularly get cancelled and pax moved either forward or back depending on preferences. It’s inconvenient but not that inconvenient especially with lounge access where you can inflict a penalty on your carrier by drinking the value of the disruption in complimentary alcohol.

With Covid now if you fly BNK to SYD - one of the few remaining “Domestic” NSW routes that don’t require a mandatory hotel you routinely arrive 15 mins early due to the lack of congestion. There’s more congestion at the BNK end!

 

[jakeseven7]

I think you're getting your carriers mixed up, it was QF that was accused of doing that, VA's cancellation rate was far lower.

Qantas' Sydney-Melbourne cancellations soar to 1-in-10

Qantas is cancelling almost one in 10 of its scheduled flights between Sydney and Melbourne every day but has rejected suggestions it is scratching services at short notice just because it doesn't sell enough seats.

www.smh.com.au

Nope all airlines cancel on the golden triangle... which is exactly what I said...

 

[kyanar]

It depends on if they want to compete with QF, and if so, how. QF has a huge global network with oneworld. Velocity's partnerships are limited, but the SQ transfer is a backdoor to the star alliance network. Of course at the moment, it's all moot, but looking longer term, I guess it would depend on various parameters and assumptions.

Post automatically merged: Aug 14, 2020

I would have thought SQ and DL were the mainstays in the end, with the shrinking of the EY network.

The alliances are kind of irrelevant really - remember that Air NZ will sell you a ticket on 013 stock flying QF metal despite being an inter-alliance itinerary. SQ could quite easily sign an interline and codeshare agreement with QF, which is possible if VA2 goes too far down the "budget" route given SQ probably won't want to devalue their experience by codesharing on a no-frills airline.

 

[dajop]

The alliances are kind of irrelevant really - remember that Air NZ will sell you a ticket on 013 stock flying QF metal despite being an inter-alliance itinerary. SQ could quite easily sign an interline and codeshare agreement with QF, which is possible if VA2 goes too far down the "budget" route given SQ probably won't want to devalue their experience by codesharing on a no-frills airline.

I wasn't talking about alliance being valuable in terms of transporting people from A to B to C. It's more about the value they bring to the loyalty program. People pay a premium to fly on QF because of the brand and service, yes, and also because of the golden handcuffs, and also why people retain QF FF credit cards, because of the offering of the loyalty program (redeeming points to fly EK F, for example) One of the advantages of Velocity was the backdoor to being able to use points on a much bigger range of airlines via SQ transfers than the relatively limited range of direct partners. Of course this is all pre-COVID, who knows what is relevant in the post COVID world.

You also mention about " SQ probably won't want to devalue their experience by codesharing on a no-frills airline" .... nb they codeshare on Eurowings, UA, JetBlue, SAS, may of which have very basic products in economy and even in business (even if they have business)

Again though who knows what it all means post-COVID..