We'd like your feedback on Australian aviation policy

[MEL_Traveller]

Qantas rejects calls for passenger compensation scheme, arguing it will jack up airfares

Qantas says compensation scheme would hike airline prices

Qantas submits to the federal government's aviation green paper that its recent performance has been "unacceptable".

www.abc.net.au

So, if planes on the SYD-MEL routes are used for service recovery elsewhere, and pax disrupted on MEL-SYD only have to wait a hour… no problems. Compensation isn’t payable under any scheme I know!

Ryanair, Easyjet and WizzAir prove that compensation schemes don’t impact low cost carrier viability.

 

[Seat0B]

Qantas rejects calls for passenger compensation scheme, arguing it will jack up airfares

Qantas says compensation scheme would hike airline prices

Qantas submits to the federal government's aviation green paper that its recent performance has been "unacceptable".

www.abc.net.au

Well in the famous words of Mandy a rice-Davies, they would say that, wouldn’t they.

 

[justinbrett]

All of the airlines have said they are against the scheme (including Rex & Bonza).

Well, in relation to recent events, of course Bonza would be opposing it!

 

[yaziyo]

The sign of good regulation is when the regulated companies don't like them. Otherwise you wouldn't need the government to force them to look after their customers.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The sign of good regulation is when the regulated companies don't like them. Otherwise you wouldn't need the government to force them to look after their customers.

Exactly. There’s a very easy way to avoid paying compensation!

 

[justinbrett]

The sign of good regulation is when the regulated companies don't like them. Otherwise you wouldn't need the government to force them to look after their customers.

There‘s definitely a balance. Deregulation has historically been a good thing over most industries including aviation.

There Is a place for regulation but it should be used sparingly. The fact companies dislike regulation is not a sign that it’s good, it could equally mean it’s bad regulation that’s stifling economic growth. There’s more examples of the latter than the former, which is why governments of all kinds are campaigning to “cut red tape”.

 

[Mwenenzi]

QF newsroom 14 Dec.-->https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-responds-to-aviation-green-paper/

Qantas rejects calls for passenger compensation scheme, arguing it will jack up airfares

Qantas says compensation scheme would hike airline prices

Qantas submits to the federal government's aviation green paper that its recent performance has been "unacceptable".

www.abc.net.au

QF already has UK/EU261 for flights from UK. And somewhat similar legislation for flights from Canada. So no change.
No compensation for extraordinary delay not in the control of the airline (weather, ATC and much more), but duty of care. Is a lot of "extraordinary delay".

EU261 is generally for

• denied boarding
• cancellation (looking at you Bonza)
• delayed arrival

Wikipedia --> Air Passengers Rights Regulation - Wikipedia

From commercial web site (fee for service) Flight delayed or cancelled? Claim up to £520 in compensation! (not a recommendation)

How much compensation can I get for a delayed flight?

This depends on the distance between your point of origin and your point of arrival.

• For flights of fewer than 1,500 km, the flight delay compensation is £220.
• For flights between 1,500 and 3,500 km, the flight delay compensation is £350.
• For flights over 3,500 km, the general flight delay compensation is £520 — however, if your flight has been delayed by fewer than 4 hours, the total amount can be reduced by 50%.

Remember that in order to get the compensation, your flight must have been delayed by at least 3 hours

For AU domestic flights a lot are under 1500km. With compensation starting at 2:00hr delay/1500 km flight and 3:00hr/3500km very few (compared to the total) airline controlled delays would require a payment in AU. The golden triangle BNE-SYD-MEL accounts for a lot of the air traffic in AU (by miles/flights/pax).
SYD-PER is 2041 miles/3285km. SYD-MEL is 439 miles/706km. MEL-AKL is 1643miles/2644km.

As I have written before as AU-NZ, is a single aviation market SAM. As there is a lot of AU<--->NZ traffic should be complementary legislation in both countries so the laws capture all flight to/from by all airlines.
But with the new NZ PM the ex CEO of Air New Zealand would not be that hopeful. Big conflict of interest. The NZ Govt is the majority shareholder in Air NZ.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I cannot understand, on any reading, that EU261 is limited to or primarily intended for denied boarding only.

cancellations are addressed from para 12 onwards.

 

[Mwenenzi]

I cannot understand, on any reading, that EU261 is limited to or primarily intended for denied boarding only.
cancellations are addressed from para 12 onwards.

QF have taken a *very* selective view/quote of EU261 in their green paper response.
But are subject to UK/EU261 for the QF flights from UK(LHR) and EU(Rome & CDG from July 2024).

 

[dajop]

QF have taken a *very* selective view/quote of EU261 in their green paper response.
But are subject to UK/EU261 for the QF flights from UK(LHR) and EU(Rome & CDG from July 2024).

Would they also be subject to the same if there are significant delays out on their SIN-Australia flight for passengers with same ticket connections from other carriers like AF, KL and AY (their codeshare partners)? Or is it the first carrier in the journey that’s on the hook for it, even if they deliver their passengers to SIN on time?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Would they also be subject to the same if there are significant delays out on their SIN-Australia flight for passengers with same ticket connections from other carriers like AF, KL and AY (their codeshare partners)? Or is it the first carrier in the journey that’s on the hook for it, even if they deliver their passengers to SIN on time?

EU261 applies to the operating carrier. So in theory the airline carrying SIN-AU would be in the hook.

 

[latawiec]

"CHOICE" have a very good article on this subject. It's available to
all.

Link:

Flight delays and cancellations compensation in Australia | CHOICE

Australians are being short-changed when it comes to clear guidance on their rights relating to flight delays and cancellations.

www.choice.com.au

 

[latawiec]

Qantas rejects calls for passenger compensation scheme, arguing it will jack up airfares

Qantas says compensation scheme would hike airline prices

Qantas submits to the federal government's aviation green paper that its recent performance has been "unacceptable".

www.abc.net.au

Qantas claim that a new proper compensation regulation will result in significant increases in airfares is incorrect, as this didn't eventuate in EU and USA. Qantas will reject calls for a proper passenger compensation regulation because they prefer status quo for their benefit.
With a new regulation implemented in Australia all airlines will need to improve their performance to prevent or minimize their losses due to payment for compensation.

Fully support a new compensation rule, similar to these in EU or USA, to be introduced in Australia.

We need this to eliminate present unpleasant experience with flying in Australia.

Hope that finally this issue will be successfully resolved.

 

[dajop]

For AU domestic flights a lot are under 1500km. With compensation starting at 2:00hr delay/1500 km flight and 3:00hr/3500km very few (compared to the total) airline controlled delays would require a payment in AU. .

And if they do come in, they can develop or use (possibly AI driven ) algorithms that model flow on impacts and minimise disruption and compensation to passengers - which they have no incentive to at the moment.

Yes if you think through the logic on say a 7:30am MEL-SYD being delayed to depart at 10:00 say. If you couldn't accomodate passengers on the 5 or 6 flights that migh get passengers to Sydney by 11am anyway, in theory you could delay a later flight (say the 8:30) to 10:00 and use the aircraft that was going to operate the 8:30 to operate your 7:30am. So instead of the 7:30 being delayed 2.5 hrs, you delay the 7:30 1 hr and the 8:30 1.5 hrs, and there you have it - no compensation.

I am pretty sure I recall reading that one of the ways European carriers have avoided compensation costs associated with short haul is exactly this approach - jiggling operations to avoid compensation incurring delays, introducing short delays to several flights rather than a long delay to one flight. Although quite a complicated set of decision making - crew costs would be a factor as well.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And if they do come in, they can develop or use (possibly AI driven ) algorithms that model flow on impacts and minimise disruption and compensation to passengers - which they have no incentive to at the moment.

Yes if you think through the logic on say a 7:30am MEL-SYD being delayed to depart at 10:00 say. If you couldn't accomodate passengers on the 5 or 6 flights that migh get passengers to Sydney by 11am anyway, in theory you could delay a later flight (say the 8:30) to 10:00 and use the aircraft that was going to operate the 8:30 to operate your 7:30am. So instead of the 7:30 being delayed 2.5 hrs, you delay the 7:30 1 hr and the 8:30 1.5 hrs, and there you have it - no compensation.

I am pretty sure I recall reading that one of the ways European carriers have avoided compensation costs associated with short haul is exactly this approach - jiggling operations to avoid compensation incurring delays, introducing short delays to several flights rather than a long delay to one flight. Although quite a complicated set of decision making - crew costs would be a factor as well.

I think the middle para works too if you have a spare crew and spare plane or two on standby. Something BA does at LHR, and presumably other large carriers at their respective airports.

 

[marki]

Dear AFF Community,

The Australian government recently published its Aviation Green Paper which will shape our nation's aviation policy for the upcoming decades.

The paper touches on numerous topics that directly impact us as frequent flyers. Key areas of discussion include the Airline Customer Advocate's role and the potential for new consumer protections.

How you can assist the AFF community:

Australian Frequent Flyer intends to voice our community's collective feedback by providing a submission on the Green Paper. To do this effectively, we’re seeking your input.

The central questions of our focus are:

1. What are your views on the current effectiveness of the Airline Customer Advocate?
2. Should Australia consider broader consumer protection models for airline passengers, such as the one used in the European Union (EU261)?
3. Any other experiences, insights or suggestions regarding the topics discussed in the Green Paper?

See our article for more details about the Aviation Green Paper.

Please share your perspectives and suggestions in this thread by Friday, 17th November 2023.

Your feedback will be invaluable. It will not only shape our collective response but will also have a lasting impact on the future of aviation in Australia. We will share our final submission with the AFF community.

Thank you for your participation!

number 2 yes

 

[LondonAussie]

I suppose one thing that hasn't really been mentioned is that delay compensation across all forms of transport is the norm in other parts of the world but unusual in the Australian transport market.

The UK and Europe also have these 'delay repay' schemes for train travel, including government run public transport as well as the private train companies. You are entitled to a 25% fare refund if your train is delayed by 15 minutes, 50% after 30 minutes, full refund after an hour delay.