"... we'll shortly announce a major investment to improve our Frequent Flyer program"

[Mr H]

Woolies points as far as I remember was always 2:1.

I thought they also used to be 870 but I may be mistaken.

 

[Pete98765432]

According to this article the conversion rate increased from 870 to 1000 on 1 October 2019.

 

[CaptJCool]

What worries me is they continue to advertise SYD-MEL for 8000 points to all Woolworths shoppers but in reality the only availability will require 16000+ points.


Qantas lost me a long time ago. I'm not actively chasing points. I'm going to run 800,000+ QFF points down where I see

Ooo
That’s nearly 50 return trips (a weekly trip to burn dem points)

For me it’s ADL-MEL FOR 8,000 points

 

[JohnK]

While it is of course true that a very large percentage of Qantas' 15+ million members would have very low points balances and will never be able to redeem for long-haul premium cabins, let's not forget the following facts that suggest there is way more demand for long-haul premium cabins than this post implies:

1. Qantas' Head of Loyalty has herself said the main bug bear of the program is the lack of award options for long-haul premium cabin seats.

If more people trying to redeem premium awards complain and do surveys and those that redeem for economy don't complain or don't do surveys then the biggest bugbear will be people redeeming for premium cabins.

Doesn't mean it's the majority, it's just premium cabins are the most vocal.

No different to those flying first class whinging their favourite sparkling wine is no longer available or not loaded on their flight. People flying economy don't really care what beer or wine they serve.

 

[JohnK]

2. Qantas members earned 99 billion (that is 99,000,000,000) points in the last six months. That's up from 88 billion the same time last year. There is an enormous number of points out there chasing redemptions.

And here is the biggest problem. Qantas overselling points and then not catering for the demand. People don't care about the Qantas store. People don't care about any seat award availability. People care about classic awards for their holidays and simply put if you're not flexible about when you want to travel then Classic award availability is very poor.

P.S. I tried multi quoting on the smartphome and failed.

 

[oz_mark]

Flybuys certainly was the 2000FBs to ,870 VFF. With usual promotions of 15% making it 2000 FBs to 1000VFF.

Woolies points as far as I remember was always 2:1.

They were both 2000:870 for a while

 

[JohnK]

Like this?

View attachment 372531

First random date I picked (4 apr) flights right through the day.

I may have status and only lookong for 1 seat as example and not 3, but I'd be willing to bet you will see availability let alone others with less status.


yup, your example is available.

Quite a few emails that mum, dad, brother receive show where you could go with your points. They don't take any flights. My Brother has 170,000+ QFF points through transfers and such and hiding the points from my account.

You picked a random date and there's plenty of availability SYD-MEL.

I picked close to 6 months of dates and no availability at all from BKK/SIN/HKG/CGK to BNE/SYD/MEL/PER.

Try BNE-SYD on 15 June. I managed to get 3 awards ~6 weeks ago and now there's only a few classic awards left.

Try SYD-BNE on 06 July. Nothing. In fact some flights business class awards cheaper than economy. Silly.

These are dates interest me not some random date with plenty of availability. I need to go to SYD on that date and return on that date. That it's around school holidays does not concern me.

And yes we can argue until the cows come home but I know I'm not alone as there are constant posts on AFF about limited classic award availability both premium and economy. It's been like this for close to 5 years and it's not getting any better yet people are buying record number of QFF points for a chance to participate in some sort of classic award seat lottery.

 

[levelnine]

Doesn't mean it's the majority, it's just premium cabins are the most vocal.

It is not about whether it is the majority or minority. It is about where in the program does demand most exceed supply (ie the biggest pain point).

As anyone who follows this space closely would know, when Qantas batch release award seats, the seats in premium cabins disappear in hours if not minutes. The economy seats last for weeks.

Indeed, economy award availability on Qantas isn't even that bad. Yes it could be way better, especially on some routes. But look at their upcoming flights to North America. There is good economy award availability from BNE/MEL/SYD to LAX across the entire calendar except for the absolute peak travel periods — there would be thousands of award seats on these three routes alone.

This compares to their award availability in business class, where they have about 10 seats across all of their long haul routes (ie to North America/Europe/South America/Africa) for the entire calendar.

Post automatically merged: Feb 26, 2024

People care about classic awards for their holidays and simply put if you're not flexible about when you want to travel then Classic award availability is very poor.

You're asking for a unicorn. Qantas are never going to release thousands of classic award seats (because that's what would be required to satisfy the demand) to the most in-demand locations during school holiday periods. You might as well be asking for Qantas to pay you to fly — you have as much chance of that happening.

And Qantas are never going to stop selling more points. It is the most profitable part of the Qantas Group. Again, you're asking for a unicorn. Might as well ask for Vanessa Hudson to come over to your house and sing you happy birthday.

 

[RichardMEL]

Quite a few emails that mum, dad, brother receive show where you could go with your points. They don't take any flights. My Brother has 170,000+ QFF points through transfers and such and hiding the points from my account.

Uh OK? What does your family members' use of their accounts and "hiding"(?) have to do with the usefulness of the program or not? Are you channelling the forums canine member?

You picked a random date and there's plenty of availability SYD-MEL.

I picked close to 6 months of dates and no availability at all from BKK/SIN/HKG/CGK to BNE/SYD/MEL/PER.

ah but you've conveniently changed the goal pists haven't you?!! Up thread you wrote that woolies claimed members could get flights for 8,000 points and specfically mentioned SYD-MEL and suggested this was now more or less impossible. I didn't make up the route for my example seatch, just clicked on a random date on the calendar.

yes, you mentioned routes of specific interest to you later on, but not in connection with 8k points - because that was never a thing.

We know you usually need 3 seats and that will be harder of course. Now, I agree absolutely there should be better availability in Y.

Of course you may not see 3, but there may be two available on specific flights? That may not suit you but ot if so the argument that there's nothing may be more that there's nothing that suits you.

Oh look, I put in x2 for another random date, may 23rd

*18* CR combos cane up inc CX, CI etc which yes the longer way, but this one isn't too bad.



Plenty of other dates around then can get 2 seats.

,(forgive the screenshot with the selected text. Couldn't be bothered redoing)

Oh wait. I just put in 2 adults and 1 child.. 13 resukts, including the above flight combo, but here's the CX one:


And these are partner seats so my QF status is irrelevant.

In five minutes I found the seats you wanted and say there's nothing?

Try BNE-SYD on 15 June. I managed to get 3 awards ~6 weeks ago and now there's only a few classic awards left.

You already got 3xX and yet still claim the prigram us rubbish? What am I missing?

Try SYD-BNE on 06 July. Nothing. In fact some flights business class awards cheaper than economy. Silly.

eesounds like CR vs points plus pay.
 

These are dates interest me not some random date with plenty of availability. I need to go to SYD on that date and return on that date. That it's around school holidays does not concern me.

strangely a person with a child probably is very interested in when school holidays are. Far more than myself as I have no kids, and I avoid school hols like the plague

Is anyone surprised at low availability at school holidays? No.

So anyway. There you go.

 

[Berlin]

So anyway. There you go.

Thank you summarising it up so well, there’s nothing really left to say and this thread was becoming a bit silly.

Woolies advertising a “from” fare of 8,000 Qantas (!) points is perfectly fine and VERY different from the usual whinge that one cannot find three or four seats on the same flight to their favourite destination during school holidays. Two very different things but both not a reason to call out Qantas.

Pleeeenty of valid reasons to complain but nothing to see here

 

[Mr H]

Thank you summarising it up so well, there’s nothing really left to say and this thread was becoming a bit silly.

Woolies advertising a “from” fare of 8,000 Qantas (!) points is perfectly fine and VERY different from the usual whinge that one cannot find three or four seats on the same flight to their favourite destination during school holidays. Two very different things but both not a reason to call out Qantas.

Pleeeenty of valid reasons to complain but nothing to see here

I think when FF programs started, there was an expectation that if you saved the points, you could get the flight. That may not have ever quite been the case (although it was the case with Jersey European, my first FF program).

But the marketing did not make it clear that availability would be very limited. This has been compounded by third party sites (especially credit card companies) inviting us to see where our points could take us. As an old hand at FF programs, I have come to expect limited availability.

Even then, when I first came to Australia lots of "points hacks" type websites told me that the best use of FF points was fr upgrades. I naively believed I could buy a cheap economy fare and upgrade it with points. It was never made clear that these upgrades were dependent on status, required "full fare" tickets, and were not confirmed until the moment you board.

I also naively believed that access to award seats would be equal for all members. The advertising material does not draw much attention to the way preferential access for QF awards is given to members with status - and other airlines don't do that.

I can see that plenty of members feel that there is a bait and switch going on that is only obvious when they have already saved up the points. Even if we can see that members have been looking for unicorns, we should also acknowledge that the FF program markets itself on how amazing and attainable unicorns can be.

On balance the program works for me because I have worked out how to make the most from it. I hope it doesn't change. Nevertheless, I can see how many members feel it is a bit of a chiz.

 

[MooTime]

If you need flights during school holidays, you know as an AFF member to look early early early, they exist if you look early.... Simple.

gotta know when to look for them, know where to find them, know when to buy them, know when to run (or fly)

 

[RichardMEL]

If you need flights during school holidays, you know as an AFF member to look early early early, they exist if you look early.... Simple.

gotta know when to look for them, know where to find them, know when to buy them, know when to run (or fly)

You never count your points while you're sitting at the table? There will be time enough for counting when the flying's done?

It def is a bit of a gamble trying for peak times!

 

[Berlin]

If you need flights during school holidays, you know as an AFF member to look early early early, they exist if you look early.... Simple.

gotta know when to look for them, know where to find them, know when to buy them, know when to run (or fly)

Or at the last minute. See this increasingly to be the case, both over at Velocity and at Qantas. Which doesn’t sit well with someone like me who prefers planning everything months ahead.

 

[ozflier]

Or at the last minute. See this increasingly to be the case, both over at Velocity and at Qantas. Which doesn’t sit well with someone like me who prefers planning everything months ahead.

or someone who needs to give work advance notice of the leave !

 

[JohnK]

You never count your points while you're sitting at the table? There will be time enough for counting when the flying's done?

It def is a bit of a gamble trying for peak times!

I'm sorry @RichardMEL but you're equating what someone on AFF may know with what someone that is not a frequent flyer may knows and expects. I know lots of people outside of AFF who do not bother. In fact I don't know anyone outside of AFF that sends points from shopping to QFF or Velocity.

I know this may not sound relevant but in Oct/Nov 2023 there was not a single economy classic award seat (not 3 seats, only 1 seat) from anywhere in SE Asia to anywhere in Australia on QF or any partners between mid-December 2023 and May 2024. Not 1 award seat for almost 6 months! That's not understandable. Thats not logical for anyone other than QF accountants. That is awful. I did have 3 reward seats flying to BKK at Christmas but could not come back. One-way for 3 people was $4000+ on QF/SQ but I did find CNX-SIN-DPS-ADL-BNE for 3 people for $2500. Lesson learnt. Never use rewards points for one way travel at peak times.

So it's extremely relevant that I have 800,000+ points that I cannot use for overseas travel and more specifically BKK. It's not my concern that it's school holidays. It's not my concern that it's peak period. I cannot use my points. I can't go outside of school holidays. I don't want to go to USA/UK. If QF are selling points and raking in profits they should ensure availability is consistent.

I know you don't agree but that does not make my whinge less relevant.

Plus my original point was that with the planned changes there will be less awards available for 8,000 points and more awards available for 16,000+ points. You don't believe that can happen? I didn't think it'd be possible not to have any award availability from SE Asia for 6 months but that's new reality. That is my speculation to go with other speculation on this thread.

 

[RichardMEL]

I'm sorry @RichardMEL but you're equating what someone on AFF may know with what someone that is not a frequent flyer may knows and expects. I know lots of people outside of AFF who do not bother. In fact I don't know anyone outside of AFF that sends points from shopping to QFF or Velocity.

Where did I say that? Please quote me. I'll wait.

I know plenty of people outside of AFF who link WWR and CC's to QFF. Additionally I have friends who actually have, gasp, redeemed points for vouchers and the oft mentioned toasters.

I think you may live in some kind of bubble. All of the marketing of the big chains like Woolies (as you yourself have pointed out) and Coles point their members to earn points via QF or VA depending on the brand. Many people do. Just because you don't apparently know anyone personally doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I'm not suggesting the non AFF bubble general population would think, oh if I link WWR to QF and earn a few points, or use QF Wellbeing, that will keep my account active - I would consider that level of knowledge to be a little deeper than the average punter's level of care of engagement, but the various ecosystems through QFF and Velocity absolutely push these as options. eg Look at BP, Red Energy etc who all push QF earning plans. Not everyone will go that way (I am sure a LOT choose WWR dollars to get the $10 off shops etc for example) but a lot DO.

I know this may not sound relevant but in Oct/Nov 2023 there was not a single economy classic award seat (not 3 seats, only 1 seat) from anywhere in SE Asia to anywhere in Australia on QF or any partners between mid-December 2023 and May 2024. Not 1 award seat for almost 6 months! That's not understandable. Thats not logical for anyone other than QF accountants. That is awful. I did have 3 reward seats flying to BKK at Christmas but could not come back. One-way for 3 people was $4000+ on QF/SQ but I did find CNX-SIN-DPS-ADL-BNE for 3 people for $2500. Lesson learnt. Never use rewards points for one way travel at peak times.

You must have missed where I literally just found 3 CR seats BKK-SYD (your very first route you claimed not available) on a random date in May - across *13* different combinations of partner flights - and not just for that one date, but across multiple days (as the screenshot shows). I don't know when you were searching or anything, perhaps very close in, but my VERY first search within a few minutes yielded results which you claim were/are not available. How can that be?

I didn't even need to look to CGK, DPS, SIN or anywhere else remotely near to BKK to find those seats. Again you claimed there was nothing. I must be doing something wrong!

As for travel at peak times - YOU have been a member of AFF, FT etc for years - so you can't use the above argument about people not "in the know" because you absolutely do and should that peak times are problematic. You already pointed out not just QF but SQ had very high pricing because of the peak period - why would they offer CR?

Further still, you give no indication of when you attempted to find those seats - for peak times most "in the know' folks know to plan and book ASAP for the periods one wants that are popular.

to wit, I have done a search for January 2025, asking for 3 pax for BKK-SYD with CR. Yes, I agree. No go. Not exactly a shock though. As you said, peak times. Indeed I couldn't find one seat.

So it's extremely relevant that I have 800,000+ points that I cannot use for overseas travel and more specifically BKK. It's not my concern that it's school holidays. It's not my concern that it's peak period. I cannot use my points. I can't go outside of school holidays. I don't want to go to USA/UK. If QF are selling points and raking in profits they should ensure availability is consistent.

Well then if you can't go outside of scool holidays, by definition it IS your concern lol. I know what you mean though - it shouldn't BE your issue that it is a high demand time because all those people with such constraints want to fly.

I do wonder why you then mentioned how there was allegedly nothing available between October and May when only a small portion that period is actually school holidays (eg: May).

You're also talking about a location that has just one QF flight a day (BKK). How can QF "ensure" availability via partners like CX, CI or even 3K (despite being much closer in ownership). They are all separate companies with their own policies and decisions on yield management. What does "ensure" mean anyway? If they had say 10 seats available for BKK-SYD on a day in January but were snapped up 350 days prior and you don't see any then how has QF done wrong? they just haven't had availability when you have looked for what you want. Doesn't mean they never had availability.

The other thing is of course, since you mention profits, that QF makes profits because they employ revenue management (and yes, very high fares too - which is an industry wide issue - remember you mentioned SQ along with QF as having the high fares for example) - so that doesn't mean giving away seats they can sell for a much lower yield.

I know you don't agree but that does not make my whinge less relevant.

Aagain, please point out via quote where I said that. Indeed I have indicated understanding that your specific needs/desires are not being met and that the program doesn't work for you. I'm not here trying to change your mind or anything - you absolutely feel the way you do and have your reasons and I have no issue with that.

I will contest blanket statements of "fact" that could be disproven within a few mintes with one search of the website though. Not to shoot you down personally, but to show that a blanket claim of "no availability" is actually untrue - for the majority of readers of this thread so they get a better view of reality.

Plus my original point was that with the planned changes there will be less awards available for 8,000 points and more awards available for 16,000+ points. You don't believe that can happen? I didn't think it'd be possible not to have any award availability from SE Asia for 6 months but that's new reality. That is my speculation to go with other speculation on this thread.

At this point that's an assumption - nobody bar QFF - know what these changes will do to affect availability. It seems a fair supposition to have which many of us would agree with, but since none of us know exactly what the changes are or what i actually happening that this is more a statement of opinion as fact, with nothing to back it up.

So again, I understand that you're not finding the value there for you and you've taken steps to find value elsewhere - as anyone should do to fit their situation. Others have written that they find value and get good use from QFF. You can't meet everyone's needs - specially when you have a whopping 15m members of the program for a relatively small airline (capacity wise) like QF - specially internationally.

So you do you John, but just try to not make blanket generalisations that can be disproven in just a few minutes? cheers

 

[RealtimeY]

The vast majority of QFF members are also not AFFers. Qantas, to their credit, does offer many ways to redeem points other than on classic rewards. Many people are happy to redeem them for shopping, gift cards, or even points + pay.

If the classic rewards system is not suitable for your particular usage, perhaps your points would offer you more utility if you simply redeemed them for something else.

 

[Rich]

The vast majority of QFF members are also not AFFers. Qantas, to their credit, does offer many ways to redeem points other than on classic rewards. Many people are happy to redeem them for shopping, gift cards, or even points + pay.

If the classic rewards system is not suitable for your particular usage, perhaps your points would offer you more utility if you simply redeemed them for something else.

Yeah, but whenever a sign up bonus or similar is marketed, its always something like "..you could take off to New York..." it's never, "you could buy a brand new toaster".

 

[RichardMEL]

Yeah, but whenever a sign up bonus or similar is marketed, its always something like "..you could take off to New York..." it's never, "you could buy a brand new toaster".

The goal of all aspirational marketing of course.

They never say you WILL of course.. just you COULD. Wording and interpretation is everything..

Now if you don't mind I'm off to the lotto shop.. I COULD win Powerball!