"... we'll shortly announce a major investment to improve our Frequent Flyer program"

[ozflier]

There won't be fewer classic rewards (these would stay), there will be more points options I reckon. Maybe at a higher level though.

If QFF is going to release more seats for more points or extra fees ,and there is a limited number of award seats , doesn't that mean there will be a reduction in the number of classic reward seats !

 

[Captain Halliday]

Which would be a real devaluation unless there was far more of a guarantee around it.

However, I would suspect all the talk from QF is pointing towards this "new product" being enhanced CR availability at the 2x-3x price(that is my thought as to price only based on other programs), so where does that leave the current setup for WP+?

And the corresponding impact on Oneworld Classic Flight Awards which are already like unicorns given how difficult they are to build and have ticketed.

 

[ozflier]

I am wondering if Qantas should be looking a increasing reward seat availability on non QF metal.
Who knows how they can do it but once i remember there were significant seats available on BA ,CX and Qatar for example .
Maybe subsidize those airlines to release more seats.
Could QF explore ways to get more seats release by OW members - unlikely but they could look at the concept.

 

[levelnine]

So no for the time being I don't expect them to reduce any existing CR number of tickets in premium cabins,

The important point is that QF have already devalued CR by removing availability on many long-haul premium routes.

Try getting a seat to/from JFK, LHR, CDG, FCO, LAX, SFO, YVR, DFW, SCL, JNB etc. Outside of batch releases and the occasional lone seat or two on a day or two, there are none. Across the coming 365 days, there's currently a total of about 10 seats departing Australia on these routes combined (mostly SFO/LAX)!

So this is just the second step of the devaluation — more seats at a higher price.

 

[jase05]

Maybe subsidize those airlines to release more seats.
Could QF explore ways to get more seats release by OW members - unlikely but they could look at the concept.

I think more chance of hell freezing over than QR releasing more seats to QF.

 

[CaptJCool]

This “pain point” I mentioned to them in my recent survey response

It came directly from the Senate enquiry submissions

Submission after submission,

“you sold us a pup”
“we wuz robbed”

For many years, we saved our points, we spent plenty of our hard earned cash on your affiliated partners, we bought the occasional tickets on your airline at higher prices than the competition to keep the points tally steadily going up.,, it was many years of accumulation

and when the time to redeem them on that big overseas trip “you promised us” we would be able to make because we had “done the hard yards” there were no options to be found!

It remained out of reach

This creates a fair amount of resentment and distrust
I delayed gratification on what turns out to be an “Empty promise”

If the purpose of the earn is to enable the dream of F Then only to discover their side of the deal was Foregone people will “get angry”

 

[Doctore1003]

Even at double the price, reward seats are still going to be snapped up fast, given how many people have huge points balances and how easy it is to earn points.

 

[SYD]

Even at double the price, reward seats are still going to be snapped up fast, given how many people have huge points balances and how easy it is to earn points.

and apparently use them on ASA!

 

[ozflier]

I think more chance of hell freezing over than QR releasing more seats to QF.

I agree but would not an option be to try to address some of the issues that their relationship into that position - eg QF consider no longer opposing increased QR flights to Australia, review the current QF / Emirates arrangements .
I am guessing that QF knows it is going downhill - lousy meals in particular business class , unbelievably clunky booking engine , clapped out aircraft - so maybe they have to be prepared to review their relationship with QR !
The longer the current situation continues the more likely QFF fliers are looking for (and finding suitable better quality alternatives for international travel .
Even Brisbane has or is getting direct services to the USA on AA and United and having recently travelled on Qatar ,their brilliant J class and lounges to/from Europe , QF leaves so much to be desired in comparison!
QF has to do something and if we see the beginning of the end if CR availability and the need higher points needed to access J or F availability internationally , then they may find that the once great Aussie carrier just sinks into the swamp !

 

[coyote25]

I'd expect QF to reduce the classic award releases before the launch of a new 'improved' QFF system. Then when QF introduce a new imprved regime say with a new higher point level option (like SIA) they can say:

"Today has part of our $250m customer reinvestment program QANTAS is proud to introduced a new option for those wanting greater flexibilty and more award availablity with the 'Advantage' award program. We have also investing in making more classic awards available at their traditional rates and to support the classic award program today we are releasing 1 million new seats".

Even if no new award level program you still hold back classic awards seats so you can made a big deal of a batch release as we have seen over the last 12 months.

 

[levelnine]

Even at double the price, reward seats are still going to be snapped up fast, given how many people have huge points balances and how easy it is to earn points.

Which raises the critical question: what is the breaking point at which people will not snap up every seat instantly?

The US airlines give away every seat in business class on their routes to Australia for about 200-450K per seat one way. And it is much easier to accumulate points en masse in the US.

That makes me think the breaking point is probably around the 2x-3x range. There aren't going to be massive numbers of people able to afford 800K to 1 mil points for a return trip to the US for two people in J. And if there are, they will get one trip in before their points balance is exhausted. Very few people are able to reliably generate more than 1 mil points per year.

 

[ozflier]

Seen it all before .
Any Qantas "enhancement' is an enhancement for QF's bottom line - in my experience they usually do not bring any benefits for the average punter !

 

[MooTime]

Seen it all before .
Any Qantas "enhancement' is an enhancement for QF's bottom line - in my experience they usually do not bring any benefits for the average punter !

True, but have to say they (QF) are saying they are spending $120M then $250M in these programs to improve things.

At least they are spending the funds to attempt to improve things.
Yes it's a business, listed one at that so increasing profits and shareholder benefits are front and centre.

It's better than uncle Alan saying pax are not match for and doing next to nothing for years.

 

[ozflier]

True, but have to say they (QF) are saying they are spending $120M then $250M in these programs to improve things.

At least they are spending the funds to attempt to improve things.
Yes it's a business, listed one at that so increasing profits and shareholder benefits are front and centre.

It's better than uncle Alan saying pax are not match for and doing next to nothing for years.

True, sorry but I just don't trust Qantas management to do the right thing by us!

 

[Himeno]

I'd expect QF to reduce the classic award releases before the launch of a new 'improved' QFF system. Then when QF introduce a new imprved regime say with a new higher point level option (like SIA) they can say:

"Today has part of our $250m customer reinvestment program QANTAS is proud to introduced a new option for those wanting greater flexibilty and more award availablity with the 'Advantage' award program. We have also investing in making more classic awards available at their traditional rates and to support the classic award program today we are releasing 1 million new seats".

Even if no new award level program you still hold back classic awards seats so you can made a big deal of a batch release as we have seen over the last 12 months.

That makes it sound like they'll fold the QFF program into the AA AAdvantage program.

 

[RichardMEL]

And the corresponding impact on Oneworld Classic Flight Awards which are already like unicorns given how difficult they are to build and have ticketed.

Very good point.

This will become more or less akin to what many see when trying to get partner rewards - where say one can see avail at a saver rate on AA but it's not available to QF.

This would be potentially on top of the various carriers that limit availability to partners as is

 

[Gremlin]

Seen it all before .
Any Qantas "enhancement' is an enhancement for QF's bottom line - in my experience they usually do not bring any benefits for the average punter !

Isn't that entirely the point of a loyalty program? The profit made by QFF is generated by convincing average punters to pay over the odds, in a variety of ways, for things that can, on average, be acquired cheaper through other methods.

EDITED TO ADD: Yesterday's presentation basically said that over the next six years we're going to almost double the amount of profit we extract from our customer base using this approach.

 

[Gremlin]

Very good point.

This will become more or less akin to what many see when trying to get partner rewards - where say one can see avail at a saver rate on AA but it's not available to QF.

This would be potentially on top of the various carriers that limit availability to partners as is

QF have an international reward flight issue that's only getting worse.

QFF is a net purchaser of partner awards - by a long way. Far more QFFers want to use partner awards than FFers of partner airlines want to use QF award capacity.

But partner airlines, some far more than others, are starting to see their own FFers nudged out of finding availability. And, due to the increase worldwide of Frequent Flyer programs becoming frequent shopper programs, this is only increasing.

I think it's reasonable that QF will continue to think about how it can release more reward capacity on its own metal, but likely that partner reward capacity is going to shrink considerably over the coming couple of years and there's nothing QF/QFF can do about it.

 

[jase05]

QF have an international reward flight issue that's only getting worse.

QFF is a net purchaser of partner awards - by a long way. Far more QFFers want to use partner awards than FFers of partner airlines want to use QF award capacity.

But partner airlines, some far more than others, are starting to see their own FFers nudged out of finding availability. And, due to the increase worldwide of Frequent Flyer programs becoming frequent shopper programs, this is only increasing.

I think it's reasonable that QF will continue to think about how it can release more reward capacity on its own metal, but likely that partner reward capacity is going to shrink considerably over the coming couple of years and there's nothing QF/QFF can do about it.

Some good points there and as we have seen with EY recently they have been the latest to block award seats in premium cabins to partners until 30 days out.
Looking after their own FF’s first and foremost and then any seats remaining unsold at 30 days can be up for grabs.

 

[TheInsider]

If QFF is going to release more seats for more points or extra fees ,and there is a limited number of award seats , doesn't that mean there will be a reduction in the number of classic reward seats !

No, not if the new higher priced awards are based on actual inventory from available fare classes. If that's the route they go down.