What Carbon

Status
Not open for further replies.
Well not according to the latest IPCC report "...The U.N. no longer claims that there will be dangerous or rapid climate change in the next two decades."

Blah, blah, blah ....

Did you read and understand this quote? It didn't say there has been no global warming in the past 2 decades, or predicts there will be no global warming in the next two decades.

In general the early models underestimated AGW, and then (based partly on that fact) they were more prone to overestimate the short-medium term change. Now they have gone back to being conservative. Some models claim that the slowdwon in warming (and previous rapid change) were the result of natural cycles overlaying the AGW trend, and another 1998 may be just around the corner if the cycles realign.

But of course it could turn out that we can pump as much CO2 as we like into the atmosphere and the planet will just take it all and smile benignly. Let's find out, eh?
 
We're all different and I respect your view (pardon the pun)

IMO planning laws aren't doing their job if this tosser can impact multiply neighbours with this OTT eyesore and glare producing contraption.

I respect all views too :)

But in this case, for starters, those same planning laws allow a hodgepodge of construction types anyway - please dont tell me the average Aussie housing scene is really beautiful.

As for those three complaining, it was them that built a raised deck área that puts them looking straight into the old guys backyard!! What a hideous invasión of his privacy!
 
Umm pink batts where the Prime Minister becomes responsible for making sure employers properly train their staff and comply with State Government whs laws. :rolleyes: Welcome to the nanny state. You'd think you lot would stop mentioning pink batts since the current commonwealth government have displayed gross hypocrisy over this issue. Nanny state and waste money on a political witch hunt. Meanwhile, no royal commission on sexual abuse in the military.
 
Did you read and understand this quote? It didn't say there has been no global warming in the past 2 decades, or predicts there will be no global warming in the next two decades.

In general the early models underestimated AGW, and then (based partly on that fact) they were more prone to overestimate the short-medium term change. Now they have gone back to being conservative. Some models claim that the slowdwon in warming (and previous rapid change) were the result of natural cycles overlaying the AGW trend, and another 1998 may be just around the corner if the cycles realign.

But of course it could turn out that we can pump as much CO2 as we like into the atmosphere and the planet will just take it all and smile benignly. Let's find out, eh?

In order of your paragraphs:

Yes, but apparently you do not. If you read it completely it says there is a 15 year down trend. Translation = global cooling trend.

A model that is wrong is a model that is wrong. A claim made that is later proven to be groundless does not equal science but sensationalism.

Well if you think so that's your prerogative. That is the tack that China is taking, and India as well as many others. Not one of them has reduced their carbon production, and over the time period from 2005 to 30.6.14 China has increased it by over 200% - so it is clear where their priorities lie (pun intended).
 
Yeah, It's a bit like that "terminal" Pink Batts initiative ... seemed like a good idea at the time ... kinda thing

The Home Insulation Program was a good idea, but plagued by misfortune and a general lack of stringent safety standards. Here are the summaries of the 4 deaths blamed on the HIP :-

Fuller, a 25-year-old qualified electrician, died on 6 December 2009. Electrocution was due to a metal staple creating an electrical contact between the metal foil insulation being installed and live 240-volt AC electrical wiring. He had been booked in to complete the "Ceiling Installers Program" induction course but it had been postponed due to a prior personal commitment. His employer was of the view the laying of foil insulation with metal staples was not a high risk practise for him as an electrician.[SUP][8]
[/SUP]
Sweeney, a 22-year-old experienced insulation installer, was similarly electrocuted due to a metal staple contacting live electrical wiring. He had completed the "Ceiling Installers Program", which was regarded by his employer as having provided adequate safety training. After the death of Fuller, government regulations required the use of plastic staples. However Sweeney possessed his own staple gun designed for metal staples and preferred to use metal staples since he found they made installation faster.[SUP][8]
[/SUP]
Barnes, a 16-year-old apprentice carpenter, was electrocuted installing fibreglass insulation. He most likely came into contact with a metal ceiling batten which was floating at main's voltage due to contact with live electical wiring. The wiring had been unusually placed during construction of the building, and subsequently a screw used to attach fibreboard to the batten had penetrated its sheath, creating a dangerous hazard for anyone entering the roof space with the mains power switched on. Barnes had no specific safety training, with his employer believing that his previous experience as an apprentice carpenter was adequate.[SUP][8]
[/SUP]
Wilson, aged 19, died of complications related to hyperthermia on 21 November 2009. He was working in St Clair, a suburb in western Sydney, where temperatures had climbed to over 40 °C (104 °F). Despite some training at TAFE in installing insulation, Wilson had little experience and was filling in for a friend, unbeknownst to the friend's employer. Wilson was accompanied by an experienced installer, who removed roof tiles to provide some ventilation. However the high ambient temperature and the strenuous work involved with lifting fibreglass "pink batts" into the roof space appear to have caused Wilson to become dehydrated. He was provided with a caffeinated soft drink by the homeowner, at his request, and his coworker encouraged him to take breaks as required. His coworker then told him to go and wait in the cabin of the truck they were using. Wilson apparently went to the truck, only to return to the roof space, having left his bag behind in the truck. The presence of the bag there gave the impression to the coworker that Wilson had walked off due to being disgruntled about the heat. The coworker went driving in search of Wilson when in fact Wilson had collapsed in the roof space and was found by the homeowner. He was rushed by ambulance to hospital where he later died
 
I respect all views too :)

But in this case, for starters, those same planning laws allow a hodgepodge of construction types anyway - please dont tell me the average Aussie housing scene is really beautiful.

As for those three complaining, it was them that built a raised deck área that puts them looking straight into the old guys backyard!! What a hideous invasión of his privacy!

The problem with planning laws - is most people don't bother to comply or get approval .... add in private certification and you have a recipe for disaster - as is clearly demonstrated in the photos.

Council records show the approved building plan was for a ``metal structure (patio) with solar panels as roof cover'' but after council told the independent certifier the structure had been built of timber with metal purlins attached to the panels, he discontinued his services.

Mr Drew then engaged another certifier, who signed off on the project.

The only thing pushing an individual to install this ridiculous solar farm in a residential backyard is the just as ridiculous "magic pudding" solar rebates and FIT .... maybe he's running a hydroponic drug operation ;)
 
Umm pink batts where the Prime Minister becomes responsible for making sure employers properly train their staff and comply with State Government whs laws. :rolleyes: Welcome to the nanny state. You'd think you lot would stop mentioning pink batts since the current commonwealth government have displayed gross hypocrisy over this issue. Nanny state and waste money on a political witch hunt. Meanwhile, no royal commission on sexual abuse in the military.

Well it's funny you should so eloquently protect this 'thoughtless bubble".

In a report that was only given 40 words or so in one paper (how odd) a follow-up study had found that the houses that had taken up the 'free' offer had actually increased their power use post-insulation on average. There was no carbon benefit achieved - actually it was counter-productive.

Subsequent interviews with (I can't remember the number quoted) explain this perverse result like this.

The people previously felt that heating their entire home was wasteful as they had no ceiling or wall insulation. If they tried to heat their whole house then their power bills were huge so they'd generally only heat one room. Post-insulation their heat losses would not be as great so they felt as they did not have to pay for the insulation they could afford to spend more heating the entire house etc, having heaters on timers so it was warm when they got home.

When asked about the environmental costs of this change in behaviour their response was generally that other people did worse or that they'd done the right thing previously and now were due some comfort.


BTW - the scheme has virtually wiped out 60% of the insulation industry that existed prior to its announcement. Chinese manufacturers of insulation had a small increase in their businesses though.
 
The Home Insulation Program was a good idea, but plagued by misfortune and a general lack of stringent safety standards. Here are the summaries of the 4 deaths blamed on the HIP :-

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

My definition of a good idea is where the value of all benefits is greater than the value of all costs. After all it was paid for with borrowed money which we tax payers have to eventually repay as well as the interest costs in the meantime.

So the loss of 4 people's lives is horrendous and I won't seek to put a value on that.

But the other quantifiable costs are:
# Loss of around 60% of existing home insulation domestic industry - costs here = increased unemployment, loss of skills, loss of tax paid by both companies and employees. Multiplier effect estimated (Access Economics) about 2.2-2.7x.
# Cost of rectification of dangerous insulation - last reported cost was over $680m (went very quiet leading into the fed election, no updates to be found).

# Cost of increased power use by houses insulated (requiring more carbon generation by coal-fired base load stations and gas peaking power stations).
# Cost of importing materials from overseas due to loss of ongoing domestic production - in the range of $90-170mn in PV terms.
# Cost of interest on insulation scheme (debt funded) - Homeowner Insulation Program:[5] incentives for homeowner occupiers to have insulation installed ($2.8 billion over two and a half years); eventually when stopped costed at $2.45bn for installation and over $680m for repairs etc. So say $3bn at 6% = $180m PA.

Total costs (PV) of interest = $3bn (as a perpetuity 180/0.06)

Benefits (see releases at the time) claimed energy efficiency - less power use by the insulated houses - subsequently found WRONG.
Create 5,000 to 10,000 jobs in the short term leading to 1,000-2,000 additional ongoing - RESULT - net loss to industry of over 2,600 jobs from level before date of announcement.

From a purely selfish home-owner viewpoint who got something for nothing - That was a great idea!
For landlords to put in insulation and be able to charge more rent as now a more desirable property - That sure was a great idea.

But for the tens of thousands of people who are not rorting the system and are waiting in severe pain (or dying) for an operation such as a hip, knee, shoulder replacement or a liver transplant etc - it does not seem such a great idea.

But then explain that it cost close to $7 billion and that amount could have built 10-12 new 'teaching' hospitals and fully funded them for the next 30 years, provided full dental cover to all aged pensioners and under-privileged (means tested exclusions where assets above $3m) the list is nearly endless.

Knee-jerk decisions rarely lead to optimal outcomes.
 
... Yes, but apparently you do not. If you read it completely it says there is a 15 year down trend. Translation = global cooling trend.

Please quote me the part of the IPCC report that says that climate has been cooling the past 15 years. As I said - that is news to me, but you have your sources apparently.
 
Please quote me the part of the IPCC report that says that climate has been cooling the past 15 years. As I said - that is news to me, but you have your sources apparently.

Please read my prior posts and follow the links - that's all you need to do.
Did you read the IPCC questionaire yet? Yes the IPCC is the source there as well.

No comment on the misgivings from those involved with the process itself, that they readily acknowledge and complain about politics overtaking science?

Balanced discussion looked forward to.
 
Gee that's a bit harsh!

Wayne Swan comes up like Mother Theresa compared with Toothless Tim.

Did you hear the rumour Tim is first in the queue to buy the soon-to-be-released land BEHIND the Warragamba Dam!

Trouble is there's some 'phantom' water stopping the surveyors.



Seems there is phantom water in a lot of his property acquisition targets.

On another note, have a read of this:

Tim Flannery: climate prophet | Institute of Public Affairs Australia

His appointment is one of many own goals by the previous government.
 
Please read my prior posts and follow the links - that's all you need to do.
Did you read the IPCC questionaire yet? Yes the IPCC is the source there as well.

No comment on the misgivings from those involved with the process itself, that they readily acknowledge and complain about politics overtaking science?

Balanced discussion looked forward to.

I have followed all your links and even started reading the IPCC questionaire ... and found nothing that backs your claim that the IPCC says the planet is cooling. Maybe you could just quote your source and we can move on - or (heaven forbid) were you just making it up?

And why does it surprise you that an INTERGOVERNMENTAL body has a political pedigree? Would you prefer that it was entirely made up of climate scientists with all contributions requiring peer review before consideration?? Well so would i, but I don't think the outcome would be any different. People with an agenda will continue to cherry-pick data and claim that any error in predictions mean we can bin the entire report.

Biassed discussion ahead with no proof predicted.
 
Don't have a problem with it, obviously I wouldn't want it next to me, but if it complies with all regulations (which I doubt), then good on them, shows initiative in a free enterprise society.

Then you do have a problem with it as you don't want it next to you? NIMBY?

Our neighbours a few doors up have a very large panel of glass on their roof facing the street. It is pretty ugly from the street. I just wonder if it impacts on the neighbour living across the road as it faces north and it is very very bright.
 
Then you do have a problem with it as you don't want it next to you? NIMBY?

Our neighbours a few doors up have a very large panel of glass on their roof facing the street. It is pretty ugly from the street. I just wonder if it impacts on the neighbour living across the road as it faces north and it is very very bright.

Yes, I was going to say it's ok as long as it is "not in my backyard". My comment was more about it being within regulations and us living in a free society, if the owner of the panels had been denied the right to put them up, would there have been a story about us "living in a nanny state" with far too many regulations infringing upon our 'individual rights'?
 
Australia's highest-earning Velocity Frequent Flyer credit card: Offer expires: 21 Jan 2025
- Earn 60,000 bonus Velocity Points
- Get unlimited Virgin Australia Lounge access
- Enjoy a complimentary return Virgin Australia domestic flight each year

AFF Supporters can remove this and all advertisements

We have managed to get our Adelaide office and warehouse over the line for solar by using an energy auditor to get our usage under the threshold to qualify for the full saving.
In Queensland the solar installation is done but they want a month to inspect it which is amazing.

cove don't forget to send someone up to clean those "black beauties" a few times a year. A good clean will increase efficiency by around 10%-15% ... more if it's covered in bird sh$t
 
No I wont forget amaroo. It is only 7 systems to save about $80k to $100k a year.
 
I love how all the Liberal voters have Solar panels but don't believe in climate change but love government subsidies!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Become an AFF member!

Join Australian Frequent Flyer (AFF) for free and unlock insider tips, exclusive deals, and global meetups with 65,000+ frequent flyers.

AFF members can also access our Frequent Flyer Training courses, and upgrade to Fast-track your way to expert traveller status and unlock even more exclusive discounts!

AFF forum abbreviations

Wondering about Y, J or any of the other abbreviations used on our forum?

Check out our guide to common AFF acronyms & abbreviations.
Back
Top