Why fly direct ... ?

[OATEK]

Currently working on 2017 itinerary of SYD-SIN-HEL-SZG outbound, CDG-HEL-HKG-SYD inbound all on the same PNR.

The draft plan for 2018 is SYD-SIN-HEL-MAN//LHR-TXL-RIX-HEL-SIN-SYD with only LHR-TXL-RIX not on the same PNR.

 

[snabbu]

Yep wrong use of words and points taken. Was thinking more about big SC runs along with the topic of why fly direct, going without hotels, HLO, etc... to take kids along would be a bad choice, just as my post was above.

 

[Boca68]

Actually I totally disagree. We have 4 kids aged 9-13. It started with mileage runs to get my oldest to WP so we would have 3x WP+1, so we could all go into the lounges. After all the hassles of my wife and I flying J/F and them in Y, I proposed flying some weird incredibly indirect flights that I could piece together when they were on sale, but would mean we all fly in J or F. Basically it is worked on a financial basis as premium flights earn far greater points hence offset the cost. If you can reduce the cost of the premium flights, you actually reach a cost neutral position with flying Y. If you really work it, the net position is cheaper than flying deep discount Y but all the benefits of status earning. This is easier to do with younger kids because many premium flights have 25-33% off for 2-11 year olds.

My wife reluctantly agreed and now everyone is happy to play along. They treat the flights as much, if not more, of a holiday than the actual holiday itself. Treated like kings and queens, movies on a bigger screen, sleep in beds, pj's, wife with champers and the kids with mocktails, the list goes on. The FA's love it and go out of their way to spoil them rotten. When my 13yr pulls out her WP card for the lounge, she almost bursts with DYKWIA'ness. They have all gotten fascinated by where we might go, how we can twist it and what planes/airlines we can do it with. They read travel reviews and comment on how they would like to try out J on xyz airlines but only on the 777-300 not 777-200, because it doesn't have the new seats. They have also been far more fascinated about "other" destinations, not just Disneyland and New York and normal kid stuff.

They have encouraged me to turn trips we were taking anyway, into MR's, and listen patiently to all my tales of trying to bend these weird routing rules to suit what we need to do. The first flight in September I am using 6 of my SWU's to upgrade from Y to J. Hopefully they will all clear. When we land in LA, the 3 youngest will hit Executive Platinum (my wife and oldest will be Plat and WP). On the way back, they will all be EXP and using their SWU's so they should all clear. We are going to LAX but going to tack on a trip to JFK or HNL because it only increases the price by $100 but the SWU's cover them for up to 3 legs on one side of the trip and it adds 6000 miles on. They are pushing me to find somewhere else like South America or Europe. eg SYD-LAX-LHR-MAD or SYD-LAX-MIA-GRU (Annoyingly I can do it on QF not AA). I know we can do SYD-LAX-MIA-SXM but we will see if we can find something more exotic.

It was not cheap to get started, but was offset by the first leg earning over 350k AA miles between the 6 of us. If we had have all been EXP, it would have been about 500k. The devaluation and revenue based points will actually be beneficial because net points for premium travel will probably increase and the availability will also increase and still costs heaps less than QF.

If use a valuation of EXP and AA miles, like thepointguy, we actually earn money (not really but just making a point). Purely on a cost of flights less value of points, it is less than a deep discount Y ticket.

YMMV

Moindardt.....will you adopt me? Please!

 

[wandering_fred]

Moindardt.....will you adopt me? Please!

Like you, the thought crossed my mind, though I suspect NEITHER of us would fit into the 9-13 age group :shock:

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[Boca68]

Like you, the thought crossed my mind, though I suspect NEITHER of us would fit into the 9-13 age group :shock:

Happy wandering

Fred

ok true, but I fit into the 9-53 age group.

Halfway there!

 

[GarrettM]

Actually I totally disagree. We have 4 kids aged 9-13. It started with mileage runs to get my oldest to WP so we would have 3x WP+1, so we could all go into the lounges. After all the hassles of my wife and I flying J/F and them in Y, I proposed flying some weird incredibly indirect flights that I could piece together when they were on sale, but would mean we all fly in J or F. Basically it is worked on a financial basis as premium flights earn far greater points hence offset the cost. If you can reduce the cost of the premium flights, you actually reach a cost neutral position with flying Y. If you really work it, the net position is cheaper than flying deep discount Y but all the benefits of status earning. This is easier to do with younger kids because many premium flights have 25-33% off for 2-11 year olds.

My wife reluctantly agreed and now everyone is happy to play along. They treat the flights as much, if not more, of a holiday than the actual holiday itself. Treated like kings and queens, movies on a bigger screen, sleep in beds, pj's, wife with champers and the kids with mocktails, the list goes on. The FA's love it and go out of their way to spoil them rotten. When my 13yr pulls out her WP card for the lounge, she almost bursts with DYKWIA'ness. They have all gotten fascinated by where we might go, how we can twist it and what planes/airlines we can do it with. They read travel reviews and comment on how they would like to try out J on xyz airlines but only on the 777-300 not 777-200, because it doesn't have the new seats. They have also been far more fascinated about "other" destinations, not just Disneyland and New York and normal kid stuff.

They have encouraged me to turn trips we were taking anyway, into MR's, and listen patiently to all my tales of trying to bend these weird routing rules to suit what we need to do. The first flight in September I am using 6 of my SWU's to upgrade from Y to J. Hopefully they will all clear. When we land in LA, the 3 youngest will hit Executive Platinum (my wife and oldest will be Plat and WP). On the way back, they will all be EXP and using their SWU's so they should all clear. We are going to LAX but going to tack on a trip to JFK or HNL because it only increases the price by $100 but the SWU's cover them for up to 3 legs on one side of the trip and it adds 6000 miles on. They are pushing me to find somewhere else like South America or Europe. eg SYD-LAX-LHR-MAD or SYD-LAX-MIA-GRU (Annoyingly I can do it on QF not AA). I know we can do SYD-LAX-MIA-SXM but we will see if we can find something more exotic.

It was not cheap to get started, but was offset by the first leg earning over 350k AA miles between the 6 of us. If we had have all been EXP, it would have been about 500k. The devaluation and revenue based points will actually be beneficial because net points for premium travel will probably increase and the availability will also increase and still costs heaps less than QF.

If use a valuation of EXP and AA miles, like thepointguy, we actually earn money (not really but just making a point). Purely on a cost of flights less value of points, it is less than a deep discount Y ticket.

YMMV

Really interesting stuff Moindardt thanks for sharing some of your knowledge and experience. Definitely something I wish to learn more about over time. One imagines the biggest hurdle is getting the wife on board. I reckon once kids are old enough to look after themselves to a decent level on flights than for them more time on planes is all part of the fun of travel as you say.
We've just today come back from our first interstate flight
(in Y) with BabyGM (>11months) and although she was remarkably well-mannered on both legs I do look forward to the days she understands what's happening and can join in the fun. And by then hopefully we'll be doing it in J at least!

 

[Mranderson]

Just got home last night from DUD-AKL(nz y)-PER( nz j)-DPS(jq y)-SIN(qz y)-HKG(ua f)-BKK(tg f)-SYD(tg f)-AKL(nz j)-WLG(nz y)-DUD(nz y).
the actual destination was DPS to see my 4 month old niece and I thought I would have fun with the route as the wife and 21 month old were staying home this time,the wife told me I was an idiot,then after I had booked she decided to join me haha(leaving the toddler with granma)
SIN-HKG-BKK-SYD were booked for 40,000 United miles each while the rest were revenue
It took 35hrs to get to DUD from wheels up in SIN��

 

[prozac]

Just got home last night from DUD-AKL(nz y)-PER( nz j)-DPS(jq y)-SIN(qz y)-HKG(ua f)-BKK(tg f)-SYD(tg f)-AKL(nz j)-WLG(nz y)-DUD(nz y). ... It took 35hrs to get to DUD from wheels up in SIN��

Now, I can understand completely why you would want to do something interesting away from DUD.

 

[JohnK]

I wouldn't say most, but all.

There's no way anyone in their right mind would book crazy routings like these with kids/family in tow.

As mentioned earlier in the thread I took dad along with me in 2009 as a 71 year old in a Oneworld award. The 11 sectors were too much for him to/from ATH via USA/Canada and return via HKG/PER. But he was talking about it to all friends/relatives at the destination. He was reciting all the transits along the way and laughing.

Wife doesn't mind a few extra flights with lounge access but she keeps telling me to shelve mattress runs as she doesn't like changing hotels too often.

Little does she know that weird routings and mattress are half the fun of travel.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Wife doesn't mind a few extra flights with lounge access but she keeps telling me to shelve mattress runs as she doesn't like changing hotels too often.

Little does she know that weird routings and mattress are half the fun of travel.

You have some education to deal with there! My wife is always happy when there are no mattress runs needed. Occasionally, I will do a MR when not needed, just to try a different hotel at a locale.

 

[JohnK]

You have some education to deal with there! My wife is always happy when there are no mattress runs needed. Occasionally, I will do a MR when not needed, just to try a different hotel at a locale.

She's a quick learner. She's picked up the desire for business class quickly. :mrgreen:

 

[Deleted member 29185]

She's a quick learner. She's picked up the desire for business class quickly. :mrgreen:

Funny about that!

 

[Boca68]

Just got home last night from DUD-AKL(nz y)-PER( nz j)-DPS(jq y)-SIN(qz y)-HKG(ua f)-BKK(tg f)-SYD(tg f)-AKL(nz j)-WLG(nz y)-DUD(nz y).
the actual destination was DPS to see my 4 month old niece and I thought I would have fun with the route as the wife and 21 month old were staying home this time,the wife told me I was an idiot,then after I had booked she decided to join me haha(leaving the toddler with granma)
SIN-HKG-BKK-SYD were booked for 40,000 United miles each while the rest were revenue
It took 35hrs to get to DUD from wheels up in SIN��

Pfft! if you were a true AFF'er, this would have been to attend a wedding (or the like) in WLG from DUD! Suck it up, man!

Jk


Nice work! Kudos!!

 

[sausagefingers]

Okay, bear with me here.

I am attempting at doing something similar here with my up coming trip from YUL-LAX to complete my US/Canadian holiday (albeit on a much much smaller scale)
I am chasing status with VA so will be using Delta.
I have a flight on VA8 out of LAX at around 11pm.
I was thinking of booking a multi city flight from YUL-JFK-MSP-LAX because I am flying with my family there will be 4 of us and we have status credit pooling into my account.
Question is, will I actually gain anything out of this? or am I just wasting my time? we're looking at Delta Comfort+ at around $1,500AUD.

What am I doing wrong? and what status credits would I even gain from this if any?

/Stupid Questions.

PS I love the energy and passion for flying in this thread!

 

[Pvcmenace]

Doing Melbourne - Europe for a white christmas with points for 2 adults 1 child in J. No one stop routes available, could get SIN-DXB-ZRH, though no point availability from MEL to SIN, Wife said must go J, daughter said as many planes as she could take. Return was fine CDG-HKG-SYD-MEL so one way to SIN was needed. Found MEL-SYD-CGK paid J and CGK-SIN on 3K.

So MEL-SYD-CGK-SIN-DXB-ZRH and CDG-HKG-SYD-MEL. Thats my most convoluted trip.

 

[Captain hum]

I am so into your nested strategy. .

What is this 'nested strategy' of which you speak?

 

[JohnK]

What is this 'nested strategy' of which you speak?

It's when you book flights to a destination but use an intermediate point.

e.g. SYD-SIN return on one ticket nested with a SIN-LHR on another ticket. Transit or stopover. Different carriers. Up to you how many intermediate points you include.

 

[Captain hum]

It's when you book flights to a destination but use an intermediate point.

e.g. SYD-SIN return on one ticket nested with a SIN-LHR on another ticket. Transit or stopover. Different carriers. Up to you how many intermediate points you include.

Ta ever so

 

[Moindardt]

What is this 'nested strategy' of which you speak?

I am going to give an example of our travel bookings and plans to try and help some people see what can be done and provide some rationality to what seems very irrational. A major factor of that is nested flights. Essentially this works on the basis that you want to fly A-C return, however, it is cheaper to book A-B & B-C than A-C, hence your second flight is nested within your first flight. Essentially, your whole trip is A-B-C-B-A.

Our fun run started when I used my excess CBA points with Velocity to book BNE-AUH-JFK on EY. I then booked JFK-YVR on CX with Qantas to go skiing at Whistler. Did you think I could get any awards flights back to Australia, even in economy, going any direction on any scheme???? NO! I then had to work out how to get home. This was August last year and I had just finished massive spreadsheets about flights, points accruals, different schemes, flight routings etc trying to work out what was good for us. The announcement of AA flying LAX-SYD and better pricing on AA codeshares made a huge difference.

My conclusions came to this:
a/ QF accrual on flights really sux everywhere except doing US domestic F flights
b/ AA accrual on QF J flights is great because of the distance.. and Australia is a long way from anywhere
c/ QF points on flights sux. Will always make 10x more on credit cards, even without the ATO, and it doesn't improve much with Status
d/ AA points accrual on flights is excellent, improves with status, and is massively improved with bonuses which are regularly 5x more for EXP especially on AA codeshares.
e/ It is far cheaper to fly to Australia from Europe than from the US and far cheaper to flying to Australia from Europe than Australia to Europe. Hence, I needed to make all my trips originate from Europe, in particular, OSL, CPH & DUB.
f/ OSL, CPH & DUB also seemed to be the targets of reasonably regular insanely priced sales from the US, particularly on BA and AA.
g/ for Brisbane, Oslo was the most likely places for discount sales with CX because of the direct flight. Most of these had a 6 month limit on return.
h/ I knew I had to fly back to Australia in January but could return in June (had meeting in San Francisco) or September (kids performing at Disneyland).

So I was waiting for the insanely discounted flights from US to OSL. Couple of weeks later, for a period of about 12 hours, a US$1400 fare became available and we picked up SFO-JFK-LHR-OSL on AA/BA in January and returning in June (to take best advantage of the CX Deals). Our SFO-JFK was in F on the transcontinental. I then added A$3100 OSL-LHR-HKG-BNE on for a total adult fare of A$5100 and A$4300 for the 2-11's. In comparison a r/t YVR-BNE was US$7k in J and $2.2k in Y (or $6k/$2k AUD from Australia). So far we have done just the Jan trip and earned approx 34k EQM and 64k miles each. As an EXP I think I earned about 85k miles.

I am now working on the return to Brisbane in July and a trip back to Whistler in January (AA year and SPG year are calendar years). I am looking at a series of nested trips consisting of bargain combinations, primarily, a oneway trip from Canada to Asia, a return from Asia to Brisbane (July and January) and a return from Asia (Penang in Malaysia specifically) to Canada. The links on the forums are:
AY: YYZ/YYC to BKK/HKG/SIN oneway J $1653 - FlyerTalk Forums
J PEN-YVR $1758CDN o/w One World and friends. F option available. - FlyerTalk Forums

Our Itinerary for July BNE-HKG-LHR-OSL-LHR-JFK-SFO and SFO-MCO-YYZ (obviously not direct) and YYZ-LHR-HEL-SIN and SIN-SYD-BNE (return in Jan)

We have another trip in September but this will be Y on AA using SWU's (sector wide upgrades - like free points upgrade). Hoping I can pull off something like SYD-LAX-MIA-GIG.

Our Itinerary for January is where it gets even more fun - Not travelling as much this year so want to maximise EQM's. BNE-SYD-SIN and cheap SIN-PEN and then PEN-YVR return combo. I have managed to work out combos which are around 90k EQM all up.

The PEN-YVR is a monster to crack. It all books into J & F booking codes and you can get it for most, if not all, AA codeshares which give 3xEQM. There is a routing which works on the way out PEN-KUL-SIN-SYD-HNL-DFW-YYZ, but I can't get it to work as the return. If not, it is something like PEN-KUL-HKG-LAX-YVR http://goo.gl/flights/5qgs This also has versions with F, eg PEN-KUL-CGK-NRT-LAX-JFK-YYZ with the CGK-NRT-LAX in JAL F and LAX-JFK on AA 321T F. It is also 67% for 2-11's

I hope this gives some people ideas of the ways nesting specials can achieve a similar price to direct trips. When you do 3 days of quality J flying with stopovers in first class lounges, it IS part of your holiday.

Moin

 

[Captain hum]

I am going to give an example of our travel bookings and plans to try and help some people see what can be done and provide some rationality to what seems very irrational. A major factor of that is nested flights. Essentially this works on the basis that you want to fly A-C return, however, it is cheaper to book A-B & B-C than A-C, hence your second flight is nested within your first flight. Essentially, your whole trip is A-B-C-B-A.

Our fun run started when I used my excess CBA points with Velocity to book BNE-AUH-JFK on EY. I then booked JFK-YVR on CX with Qantas to go skiing at Whistler. Did you think I could get any awards flights back to Australia, even in economy, going any direction on any scheme???? NO! I then had to work out how to get home. This was August last year and I had just finished massive spreadsheets about flights, points accruals, different schemes, flight routings etc trying to work out what was good for us. The announcement of AA flying LAX-SYD and better pricing on AA codeshares made a huge difference.

My conclusions came to this:
a/ QF accrual on flights really sux everywhere except doing US domestic F flights
b/ AA accrual on QF J flights is great because of the distance.. and Australia is a long way from anywhere
c/ QF points on flights sux. Will always make 10x more on credit cards, even without the ATO, and it doesn't improve much with Status
d/ AA points accrual on flights is excellent, improves with status, and is massively improved with bonuses which are regularly 5x more for EXP especially on AA codeshares.
e/ It is far cheaper to fly to Australia from Europe than from the US and far cheaper to flying to Australia from Europe than Australia to Europe. Hence, I needed to make all my trips originate from Europe, in particular, OSL, CPH & DUB.
f/ OSL, CPH & DUB also seemed to be the targets of reasonably regular insanely priced sales from the US, particularly on BA and AA.
g/ for Brisbane, Oslo was the most likely places for discount sales with CX because of the direct flight. Most of these had a 6 month limit on return.
h/ I knew I had to fly back to Australia in January but could return in June (had meeting in San Francisco) or September (kids performing at Disneyland).

So I was waiting for the insanely discounted flights from US to OSL. Couple of weeks later, for a period of about 12 hours, a US$1400 fare became available and we picked up SFO-JFK-LHR-OSL on AA/BA in January and returning in June (to take best advantage of the CX Deals). Our SFO-JFK was in F on the transcontinental. I then added A$3100 OSL-LHR-HKG-BNE on for a total adult fare of A$5100 and A$4300 for the 2-11's. In comparison a r/t YVR-BNE was US$7k in J and $2.2k in Y (or $6k/$2k AUD from Australia). So far we have done just the Jan trip and earned approx 34k EQM and 64k miles each. As an EXP I think I earned about 85k miles.

I am now working on the return to Brisbane in July and a trip back to Whistler in January (AA year and SPG year are calendar years). I am looking at a series of nested trips consisting of bargain combinations, primarily, a oneway trip from Canada to Asia, a return from Asia to Brisbane (July and January) and a return from Asia (Penang in Malaysia specifically) to Canada. The links on the forums are:
AY: YYZ/YYC to BKK/HKG/SIN oneway J $1653 - FlyerTalk Forums
J PEN-YVR $1758CDN o/w One World and friends. F option available. - FlyerTalk Forums

Our Itinerary for July BNE-HKG-LHR-OSL-LHR-JFK-SFO and SFO-MCO-YYZ (obviously not direct) and YYZ-LHR-HEL-SIN and SIN-SYD-BNE (return in Jan)

We have another trip in September but this will be Y on AA using SWU's (sector wide upgrades - like free points upgrade). Hoping I can pull off something like SYD-LAX-MIA-GIG.

Our Itinerary for January is where it gets even more fun - Not travelling as much this year so want to maximise EQM's. BNE-SYD-SIN and cheap SIN-PEN and then PEN-YVR return combo. I have managed to work out combos which are around 90k EQM all up.

The PEN-YVR is a monster to crack. It all books into J & F booking codes and you can get it for most, if not all, AA codeshares which give 3xEQM. There is a routing which works on the way out PEN-KUL-SIN-SYD-HNL-DFW-YYZ, but I can't get it to work as the return. If not, it is something like PEN-KUL-HKG-LAX-YVR http://goo.gl/flights/5qgs This also has versions with F, eg PEN-KUL-CGK-NRT-LAX-JFK-YYZ with the CGK-NRT-LAX in JAL F and LAX-JFK on AA 321T F. It is also 67% for 2-11's

I hope this gives some people ideas of the ways nesting specials can achieve a similar price to direct trips. When you do 3 days of quality J flying with stopovers in first class lounges, it IS part of your holiday.

Moin

This is great. Thanks so much for taking time to give so much detail. Super helpful . One question -what are EQM's ?