Wind Generation and the Electricity Grid

[Pushka]

On a hoho bus in Denmark today. There's a 190% import tax on cars so those purchased are the cheaper models. Are these necessarily green?They aim to be carbon neutral by 2024. The blurb stated they aim to do that by bicycles, eating organic fruit and drinking beer. Guess the high usage of water in beer production is considered green.

 

[Moody]

You are helping prove drrons point there -......

Nope - drons point was that $ per kWh was higher in Denmark than Australia, so therefore renewable energy must be more expensive. That is simplistic, rookie economics.

I would love to know where those numbers come from but I suspect those numbers have a bit to do with the different sizes and climates of the countries - tell you what - I'll deliver all the mail to Denmark and you do Australia and we'll see who uses more fuel to do that shall we? Or perhaps we should just relocate the entire population of Australia to a land area the size of Victoria and leave the rest empty?

What fresh hell is this? Australia is bigger and hotter than Denmark so we are entitled to use twice the energy per capita? Australia is highly urbanised and with the right insulation the absolute need for heating/cooling is restricted to the extreme regions

Links :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption

This was it :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita

 

[whatmeworry]

On a hoho bus in Denmark today. There's a 190% import tax on cars so those purchased are the cheaper models. Are these necessarily green?They aim to be carbon neutral by 2024. The blurb stated they aim to do that by bicycles, eating organic fruit and drinking beer. Guess the high usage of water in beer production is considered green.

Carlsberg aiming for zero water waste by 2030.

The Together Towards Zero strategy, launched on Tuesday (13 June), realigns Carlsberg’s sustainability efforts to the timeframes and goals of the Paris Agreement and the Sustainable Development Goals. It sets intermediate targets, such as using 100% renewable electricity at all breweries, for 2022, which is the year that its SAIL'22 corporate strategy will be completed. However, Carlsberg’s sustainability strategy stretches beyond its corporate one, with 2030 goals in place to achieve a zero-carbon footprint and zero water waste at breweries.

https://www.edie.net/news/7/Carlsbe...r--industry-leading--sustainability-strategy/

 

[Pushka]

Carlsberg aiming for zero water waste by 2030.



https://www.edie.net/news/7/Carlsbe...r--industry-leading--sustainability-strategy/

There's zero wastage which means the water is reusable but water usage is more relevant and even though they plan to reduce it by 50% that's still a lot of water used to drink beer.

 

[eastwest101]

Nope - drons point was that $ per kWh was higher in Denmark than Australia, so therefore renewable energy must be more expensive. That is simplistic, rookie economics.

OK - your own figures show that electricity is more expensive in Denmark than all Australian States (although SA is coming close to Denmark) and they show that installed wind power capacity is a higher percentage. So if renewables are so cheap then how come electricity is more expensive in in Denmark than Australia at the moment?

Anyway - Denmark is a silly example to compare to Australia - as last time I checked - Australia isn't interconnected to France and other European countries nuclear, gas, coal, solar and hydroelectricity generators, but Denmark is, and so can draw from numerous generators and technologies when the wind isn't blowing.

What fresh hell is this? Australia is bigger and hotter than Denmark so we are entitled to use twice the energy per capita? Australia is highly urbanised and with the right insulation the absolute need for heating/cooling is restricted to the extreme regions

Total Energy Consumption per Capita per Annum (2014) is Denmark = 2903 Kg oe/a vs Australia = 5484 Kg oe/a

so no - double 2903 isn't 5484.

My point was that these figures should include the energy used for transportation and industrial and domestic use. Don't forget about refrigeration - its not optional in Australia and must surely be a larger cost than a compact temperate country such as Denmark. You can carry on about how urbanised Australia is but have a look at the respective sizes of the nations and then figure out how you transport goods and energy to some of the more remote parts of Australia, sure they don't have high populations but they do have some services and transportation to get stuff to and from them. How large and extensive do you think the grid infrastructure is in Denmark vs Australia. How do you think milk and fresh vegetables gets to Port Hedland for instance? By plug-in hybrid electric truck perhaps? Or do they pop out through the socket in the wall via internet? Think remote regions and then think about economy of scale and relative populations and distances to service them.

 

[drron]

So if the unit price per KWH is higher in countries and states with a higher proportion of their energy coming from wind and solar than countries with more coal,gas,nuclear or hydro production how does non rookie economics explain that if it is not the higher cost of those technologies?

 

[Pushka]

SA now has more expensive electricity than Denmark.

 

[Quickstatus]

There is nothing that Al Gore can do that will change the climate

People live in remote regions of Australia?. I thought people only lived in the inner city collectives growing communal gardens. Must be the ferals - completely deplorable!

 

[Moody]

OK - your own figures show that electricity is more expensive in Denmark than all Australian States (although SA is coming close to Denmark) and they show that installed wind power capacity is a higher percentage. So if renewables are so cheap then how come electricity is more expensive in in Denmark than Australia at the moment

Did I say rookie economics? I meant to say zombie economics. The running cost to GENERATE electricity from renewables is now on par with coal/gas (right wing parrots say it's more, tree huggers say it's less - let's split the difference between the self interested liars and the one-eyed optimists and call it a draw), but the BUILD costs aren't. Denizens of Denmark are paying large power taxes to fund the move to renewables, which is a globally selfless act. Australia, on the other hand, may as well go all to cough with Donald Duck. Has Tony mentioned pulling out of the Paris agreement? It would surprise me if he hasn't ....

Total Energy Consumption per Capita per Annum (2014) is Denmark = 2903 Kg oe/a vs Australia = 5484 Kg oe/a

so no - double 2903 isn't 5484

My apologies - I was trying to help by rounding the numbers for those who take their socks off to count past 10. Wiley types no doubt whipped out their slide rule and proudly told mumsy that "the bad man should have said "1.89 times to two decimal places" rather than exaggerating by saying "double"!

I blame Donald "T" Duck

 

[Pushka]

And SA even with the highest unemployment in AUS and deficit is also going selfless in the renewables target. But many of us who work have to fly interstate now to do so. Bit like the conference on climate change held in Doha in mid summer. Sensible stuff. Not.

 

[Quickstatus]

Globally selfless act?. While the poor can't afford electricity and while >1000 coal fired power stations are being built around.

Good luck to the Danes!. I hope the Danes do come out on the right side of histor unlike their poor Prince Hamlet of Denmark until now is still thought to be either heroic or mad. Maybe both.

 

[Pushka]

Globally selfless act?. While the poor can't afford electricity and while >1000 coal fired power stations are being built around.

Good luck to the Danes!. I hope the Danes do come out on the right side of histor unlike their poor Prince Hamlet of Denmark until now is still thought to be either heroic or mad. Maybe both.

Yesterday we were told the people in Denmark are questioning the value of the Monarchy. Not surprising given their taxation rate and extreme cost of living.

 

[Quickstatus]

Now they are dismantling their institutions. They must be mad then. What of Mary?.
Will the steep prices affect the hydroponic cultivars?

 

[donovan301]

What of Mary?.

bit off to side of topic,... Jimi Hendrix- The Wind Cries Mary - Video Dailymotion

enjoy

 

[Quickstatus]

Haha no actually I meant Mary Jane!.
Amsterdam...hydroponics...Mary Jane...

 

[drron]

It is true that in South Australia in January 2016-the last time I can find figures available as they stopped coal electricity generation in May 2016-the price of 1Mwh of coal produced electricity was $128.For wind power 1Mwh cost between $80-$120.These are the figures that wind backers quote to prove their point.
However there are just a couple of inconvenient facts.The actual production cost of that coal fired 1 Mwh was $35 but they had to pay $93 for a renewable energy certificate.
The other inconvenient fact is the cost of the wind Mwh does not include the $1 million each 3MW wind turbine receives in subsidy each year before they produce any energy.

 

[donovan301]

Haha no actually I meant Mary Jane!.
Amsterdam...hydroponics...Mary Jane...

Ahh, so not too far off point then, if I understand your inference to Mary Jane.

I thought you may have been refering to ... Mary, Crown Princess of Denmark, Countess of Monpezat, R.E. (Mary Elizabeth; née Donaldson)...
...hence slightly off to side of topic.

 

[Quickstatus]

And renewable wind needs a gas backup MW for MW ready to fire up at a moments notice when the wind stops.
Or interconnected from another state coal.

 

[donovan301]

And renewable wind needs a gas backup MW for MW ready to fire up at a moments notice when the wind stops.
Or interconnected from another state coal.

or in the future, hopefully just tapping into another wind-farm / Solar-farm where it is Windy/Sunny at the time !

unless Mr Stark.... I mean Elon, will perform more battery endeavours for the future in Australia.

(even if he does it on time and we have to pay for it

 

[TheRealTMA]

Haha no actually I meant Mary Jane!.
Amsterdam...hydroponics...Mary Jane...

Gosh! Really? Who would have guessed ! Is Amsterdam in Denmark? Who would have guessed.