Worse than feet on bulkheads

[Legoman]

The example you have given, the swastika, is against the law.

No it's not

However when Mrs Hinks complained about her neighbour’s naz_ flag, council officers refused to speak to the man and Australian Federal Police confirmed it was not illegal to fly a naz_ — or even an ISIS — flag.

It is however extremely anti-social, just as putting your feet on chair backs and annoying the passenger in front is, but according to you that's perfectly fine because it's technically not illegal. Well, I dare you again to go and wrap yourself in a perfectly legal naz_ swastika flag and then try and enter an airline lounge like that and report back to us how you got on. I'll even help you out with a source for getting yourself a naz_ swastika flag. Here you go clicky right here on this highlighted bit

I'm suggesting you only try this with a perfectly legal naz_ flag because I don't want to be accused of trying to get anyone in any legal trouble, seeing as how the naz_ flag is perfectly legal to display in Australia. I don't suggest you try this with a Marlboro T-shirt though, because cigarette advertising is illegal, which only goes to show just how retarded Australian laws are when a cigarette logo is more illegal than the naz_ flag, but there you go. In any case, you'll be perfectly fine since you're so sure of your argument. So go ahead, I've given you the (very inexpensive) source for the flag. I've proven to you it's not illegal and according to you, then it's perfectly OK to go around displaying it against all norms of accepted public morality, just as kicking the back of someone else's seat on public transport should be. So go ahead and prove me wrong with the naz_ flag example. I dare you.

For the record, I have a replica Marlboro Team Ferrari pit crew shirt which I have tried to wear entering a race track post the implementation of complete cigarette advertising bans and I was refused entry. The same is true of classic race cars like the JPS BMWs of the mid-eighties are not allowed to run with their historically accurate sponsorship signage intact at many race tracks anymore. It doesn't even matter that John Player Special is a brand that doesn't exist anymore. It's banned and illegal to display in public. The naz_ swastika however is not.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So you agree with me.You wouldn't stand by because the indigenous Australian wasn't going to complain so you would step in and do it for them.So I would do that also as well as in the same situation as in Japan.

My point was that if i was an Australian, witnessing someone do something offensive, I wouldn't do nothing and expect another tourist to step in.

The same applies on the train in Japan. If a Japanese person is offended by the feet on seats, they shouldn't just sit there and expect someone other than themselves to step in. They should either address the issue, or contact the conductor or other train staff.

On the other hand, if I was on a train and the dozen or so Japanese passengers didn't seem fussed enough to alert anyone about the feet, would I not take the lead from them and also not be fussed?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

No it's not



It is however extremely anti-social, just as putting your feet on chair backs and annoying the passenger in front is, but according to you that's perfectly fine because it's technically not illegal. Well, I dare you again to go and wrap yourself in a perfectly legal naz_ swastika flag and then try and enter an airline lounge like that and report back to us how you got on. I'll even help you out with a source for getting yourself a naz_ swastika flag. Here you go clicky right here on this highlighted bit

I'm suggesting you only try this with a perfectly legal naz_ flag because I don't want to be accused of trying to get anyone in any legal trouble, seeing as how the naz_ flag is perfectly legal to display in Australia. I don't suggest you try this with a Marlboro T-shirt though, because cigarette advertising is illegal, which only goes to show just how retarded Australian laws are when a cigarette logo is more illegal than the naz_ flag, but there you go. In any case, you'll be perfectly fine since you're so sure of your argument. So go ahead, I've given you the (very inexpensive) source for the flag. I've proven to you it's not illegal and according to you, then it's perfectly OK to go around displaying it against all norms of accepted public morality, just as kicking the back of someone else's seat on public transport should be. So go ahead and prove me wrong with the naz_ flag example. I dare you.

For the record, I have a replica Marlboro Team Ferrari pit crew shirt which I have tried to wear entering a race track post the implementation of complete cigarette advertising bans and I was refused entry. The same is true of classic race cars like the JPS BMWs of the mid-eighties are not allowed to run with their historically accurate sponsorship signage intact at many race tracks anymore. It doesn't even matter that John Player Special is a brand that doesn't exist anymore. It's banned and illegal to display in public. The naz_ swastika however is not.

I take your point (and am surprised!). But potentially a fine line if that display crosses into the use of a symbol with a chance of inciting racial hatred or vilification. Quite different to putting feet on a bulkhead.

The Marlboro shirt seems like it might be linked to the place it was trying to be worn rather than a general blanket ban?

 

[Legoman]

I take your point (and am surprised!). But potentially a fine line if that display crosses into the use of a symbol with a chance of inciting racial hatred or vilification.

As long as you remain otherwise perfectly polite and considerate like any other passenger who doesn't think putting their feet on furniture is normal behaviour, then I'm sure you'll be fine wearing your Swastika flag as a cape. It would be different if you start goose-stepping around in a march and screaming Heil Hitler at everyone, but unfortunately there is no specific law against bad taste and being fashion blind. If there was then there would be plenty of people I see every single day with disgusting facial piercings and tattoos who should be locked up - many of them wearing police uniforms in fact.

Quite different to putting feet on a bulkhead.

I agree. Putting feet on a bulkhead or seat back is far, far worse. I would not bat an eyelid to someone wearing a naz_ swastika flag as a cape, but having my seat back constantly pulled and kicked and bumped for no good reason other than the inconsiderate antics of the passenger behind, would push me to react in a very aggressive and impolite way indeed much quicker.

The Marlboro shirt seems like it might be linked to the place it was trying to be worn rather than a general blanket ban?

Possibly. I think one of the sponsors of the event I was trying to enter at the time was QUIT, the anti-smoking lobby group, but the guy told me by way of explanation that any form of public display of cigarette advertising or brand name or even just logo ambassadorial display, even for a historical or educational purpose, was now banned and illegal, so I don't think it was specifically limited just to the one event I was trying to wear it at.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I agree. Putting feet on a bulkhead or seat back is far, far worse. I would not bat an eyelid to someone wearing a naz_ swastika flag as a cape, but having my seat back constantly pulled and kicked and bumped for no good reason other than the inconsiderate antics of the passenger behind, would push me to react in a very aggressive and impolite way indeed much quicker.

But feet on a bulkhead, by definition, do not affect anyone else. There is no seat to bump. Someone with their feet on the back of your chair and bumping it would be anti-social.

Defining anti-social behaviour is not always straight forward. But the WA Police provide an example, they say it is 'behaviour that disturbs, annoys or interferes with a person's ability to go about their lawful business'.

Feet on a bulkhead don't meet that definition. They don't stop anyone carrying on their lawful business. Kicking the back of the seat in front probably does meet the definition.

A private person wearing a swastika in public likely has no reason to do so except to cause a reaction. And if that reaction is intimidation, or hatred or vilification, that crosses the line, certainly of anti-social behaviour, and possibly the law as well.

 

[Legoman]

But feet on a bulkhead, by definition, do not affect anyone else. There is no seat to bump. Someone with their feet on the back of your chair and bumping it would be anti-social.

The title of the thread may be about bulkheads, but you know well enough that we're now talking about feet on seatbacks as well because it was you who argued this was not significantly different right here

 

[JohnK]

My point was that if i was an Australian, witnessing someone do something offensive, I wouldn't do nothing and expect another tourist to step in.

The other line of thought is "I'm Australian and it's not my business to tell someone they are doing something offensive".

I've seen too many innocent bystanders get themselves in trouble. The funniest, actually not funny, was a couple were fighting behind Wiley Park pub many years ago. A stranger came to the aid of the lady trying to get the man away from her when the arguing couple started laying into the man trying to help.

No thanks. I'm not a hero.

 

[TheRealTMA]

The title of the thread may be about bulkheads, but you know well enough that we're now talking about feet on seatbacks as well because it was you who argued this was not significantly different right here

Let’s stop attacking the person and play the ball, VAR not withstanding.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The title of the thread may be about bulkheads, but you know well enough that we're now talking about feet on seatbacks as well because it was you who argued this was not significantly different right here

In the posted photo all three passengers were known to each other. Presumably if the guy in front didn't like having his seat kicked he'd turn around and tell his mate to stop! Where is the nexus for any other passenger to step into that scenario to ask those with their feet up to put them down?

The guy in front? yes. A japanese offended by the behaviour? Sure. Either directly or via a conductor. A member of JR staff? Of course. A member of the public with no nexus? That's the question I've been asking.

 

[love_the_life]

I think I got such a shock seeing the feet on the back of the seats that it didn’t occur to me to speak to them. Maybe I should have but they did look very much part of the Me generation so perhaps it would have ended in tears - mine!

 

[suze2000]

This "not my business" ("I might get hurt") attitude is the reason why we end sitting fuming silently while someone impinges on us in public spaces all the time. We're living our lives in fear!

How hard is it to politely point out that what those people are doing is culturally insensitive to the people in the country through which they are travelling and ask them to put their feet down? This is how tourists in countries like Japan get a bad reputation!

And really, what's the worst that can happen in this instance? Do they look like they are hyped up on meth? Because if not, the worst that's likley to happen to you is to be told to F Off. You might get angry, but you aren't going to be actually hurt by that.

 

[Pushka]

This "not my business" ("I might get hurt") attitude is the reason why we end sitting fuming silently while someone impinges on us in public spaces all the time. We're living our lives in fear!

How hard is it to politely point out that what those people are doing is culturally insensitive to the people in the country through which they are travelling and ask them to put their feet down? This is how tourists in countries like Japan get a bad reputation!

And really, what's the worst that can happen in this instance? Do they look like they are hyped up on meth? Because if not, the worst that's likley to happen to you is to be told to F Off. You might get angry, but you aren't going to be actually hurt by that.

I just don’t know these days. I’m not sure I’d stand up for something like this. No one is being hurt, and I guess to be blunt if it isn’t in Japanese culture to do anything about it then as a westerner I’m not sure it’s my battle to fight either.

 

[JohnK]

And really, what's the worst that can happen in this instance? Do they look like they are hyped up on meth? Because if not, the worst that's likley to happen to you is to be told to F Off. You might get angry, but you aren't going to be actually hurt by that.

Have you seen what one punch can do? I'm not sure how the person will react. I don't need to be the hero.

 

[suze2000]

Why is everyone so scared these days? Too much commercial television news? Be afraid! Be afraid!

Impotent "tut-tutting", British-style probably won't cut it with these people. I really don't understand why it's dangerous to explain to these people that they are likely offending their hosts.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Why is everyone so scared these days? Too much commercial television news? Be afraid! Be afraid!

Impotent "tut-tutting", British-style probably won't cut it with these people. I really don't understand why it's dangerous to explain to these people that they are likely offending their hosts.

Perhaps there's a flip side to this... rather than being scared it's a case of just relaxing and paying attention to your own journey rather than worrying about what others are doing? Some seem to be very concerned about what others are doing... you can't wear thongs in the lounge, you can't put your feet on a bulkhead, you can't wear revealing clothes, you can't recline your seat... and the list goes on. It seems a shame that some let these things affect them in a detrimental way. It must impact on the enjoyment of their holiday.

'These people' have paid their fare just like everyone else has. They are trying to get comfortable. There doesn't seem to be any malice involved. If the hosts are offended, they can take appropriate action.

 

[Happy Trails]

The one and only time I felt the need to ‘have words’ with another pax was was a CX flight out of HKG.

I was in the second row of economy and the guy in front had his feet on the bulkhead (where else?) and his seat fully reclined before take-off.

I pointed out the recline to a passing FA and she said she would deal with it when they did their final safety checks.

Sure enough, on taxiing, she told him to un-recline his seat, which he did and, just as sure, he reclined it again as soon as the FA had passed. At that point I got out of my seat and told him in no uncertain terms to bring his seat upright again.

I don’t know his grasp of English, but I must have made an impression as his seat-back remained upright for the rest of the flight.

 

[Happy Trails]

Perhaps there's a flip side to this... rather than being scared it's a case of just relaxing and paying attention to your own journey rather than worrying about what others are doing? Some seem to be very concerned about what others are doing... you can't wear thongs in the lounge, you can't put your feet on a bulkhead, you can't wear revealing clothes, you can't recline your seat... and the list goes on. It seems a shame that some let these things affect them in a detrimental way. It must impact on the enjoyment of their holiday.

'These people' have paid their fare just like everyone else has. They are trying to get comfortable. There doesn't seem to be any malice involved. If the hosts are offended, they can take appropriate action.

Yes, all well and good, but how does a normal person go about achieving this level of Zen-like insouciance?

Edit: Semi-serious question (rather than confrontational) as I'm actually interested to know.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yes, all well and good, but how does a normal person go about achieving this level of Zen-like insouciance?

Edit: Semi-serious question (rather than confrontational) as I'm actually interested to know.

Oh, controlling the inner control freak? Just take a breath and ask 'what am I actually reacting to here?'.

If someone has a strong reaction to someone wearing thongs in a lounge, they could stop for a moment and ask themselves 'why do I feel this way?'. If they have a strong reaction to feet on a bulkhead, ask themselves the same question. Fix up the internal before you start trying to fix up others (for something that probably doesn't need fixing!)

 

[suze2000]

I just feel offended because as a tourist you are GUEST in the country you are visiting and as such, you should behave with the same care as if you were in someone's home. This is why I'm upset about the dudes with their feet up. I wouldn't care so much if they were Japanese. Or if they were in Australia.

Just like you have to wear a headscarf to visit a mosque in Turkey, or take your shoes off to go into a temple, you should fit in with the custom (as much as possible) of the country you are visiting.

 

[Pushka]

I just feel offended because as a tourist you are GUEST in the country you are visiting and as such, you should behave with the same care as if you were in someone's home. This is why I'm upset about the dudes with their feet up. I wouldn't care so much if they were Japanese. Or if they were in Australia.

Just like you have to wear a headscarf to visit a mosque in Turkey, or take your shoes off to go into a temple, you should fit in with the custom (as much as possible) of the country you are visiting.

But the difference here is that countries such as Turkey insist that you cover yourself, take shoes off etc. The doesn’t seem to be the same instructions available to tourists in Japan.