Who gets Priority? Staff op ups v FF op ups!

[sweens]

Last week I flew SYD -LAX return on QF and I was very pleased to be able to get a points upgrade from Y to J on a discounted fare.

Both on the way out and back my seating companions were young guys 21+ (with no status) who had a relatives or on the return flight the guy said that his Dad had good conections at QF.

They both indicated that this was not a rare occurence and that it was good to be in the know at QF.

As my business partner was down the back in Y...he has a PS status, while I am WP and he had his upgrade request knocked back, it got me wonderuing as to where QF's loyalties lie?

By the sounds of this it is to their staff and their friends and associates rather than FF?

Am I wrong here?

 

[reductionist]

It's not clear from your post as to whether or not the people you mention were flying on an award fare or not. It's possible that their good connections at QF arranged non-award fares for them - reducing the amount of awards for the upgrade lottery pool?

 

[anat0l]

If someone has good connections at QF (let alone through a "third party", i.e. Dad in this case), that doesn't necessarily make them staff, nor on staff fares.

In saying that, no idea what the deal could be, and for what it's worth said persons could be talking out of their behinds, or not so much that but rather they are just as naive as both you and I are about the system.

In short, it's not clear why they are in the premium class. Also, your post didn't make it clear whether they are op-ups or other kinds of fares. And you got the exact same passengers on both outbound and inbound flights? That's a rarity (not a dig, but genuinely if you don't travel with them, that is a surprise).

 

[drron]

Was Dad a CL?
Was the guy who had relatives at QF Irish?
Now I remember long ago-it was in the days of Pan Am.Neice of mine had the same name as the daughter of Pan Ams CEO.Travelled to and from the US and was upgraded to F both times.
So definitely this sort of thing is not just QF.

 

[JohnK]

As my business partner was down the back in Y...he has a PS status, while I am WP and he had his upgrade request knocked back, it got me wonderuing as to where QF's loyalties lie?

By the sounds of this it is to their staff and their friends and associates rather than FF?

Am I wrong here?

I don't know what actually happens but my suspicion for a long time has been that QF staff try to help out other staff, family and/or friends.

I have witnessed many times when a person did not clearly have a business class seat/ticket nor was it an op-up and they have been escorted from the back of economy to business class for the rest of the flight. The the crew and this person are all talkative throughout the flight. Friend? Family?

 

[reductionist]

I don't think pax being chatty with the FA after being upgraded in-flight is necessarily an indicator of a close relationship between the two.

My understanding is that these upgrades (are rare and) happen at the discretion of the FA (i.e. not the computer). I'd probably be quite chatty with the FA if they chose me over everyone else for this type of upgrade.

 

[gumpy]

If a staffer got an upgrade to F over me who applied for a points upgrade I'd be pissed...

We pay their wages...

 

[dfcatch]

I don't think pax being chatty with the FA after being upgraded in-flight is necessarily an indicator of a close relationship between the two.

My understanding is that these upgrades (are rare and) happen at the discretion of the FA (i.e. not the computer). I'd probably be quite chatty with the FA if they chose me over everyone else for this type of upgrade.

Quite often these types of in-flight upgrades will be given to doctors on board who may have lent some assistance.

But in the "pure" example that JohnK gave, I've witnessed this several times too.

I don't have a problem with it per se (other than jealousy), as long as pax upgrades/OpUps weren't affected.

My view is based firmly on the fact that QF view premium cabins as a premium product, and would rather fly them empty to maintain their value. Therefore they do need to be careful about the perception that this "friend/staff special treatment" gives off.

Personally, I think this behaviour (in the example), devalues the cabin much more than giving status pax the odd complimentary upgrade.

 

[N860CR]

Qantas staff travel is (probably) the worst of all the major airlines, so I wouldn't get up them too much!

Qantas release a number of seats for FF upgrades and these are processed long before staff upgrades. We all know that QF will fly empty seats rather than points upgrade a pax (be them WP, CL or whatever).

Staff upgrades are processed after the flight has closed when no further pax can be added. You'll notice on domestic flights that there are always a handful of well dressed people sitting by the desk at the gate waiting for boarding passes (to see if they'll get on that flight or not). They're the same last 3-4 people who get on the plane and sit in J. They've already been through probably an hour of rude attitude from the ground staff who (I think anyway) sit there and enjoy the stress of the staff member who is wondering if they're going home or not!

I still have access to staff travel, but I prefer to pay for my flights.

 

[dfcatch]

Qantas staff travel is (probably) the worst of all the major airlines, so I wouldn't get up them too much!

Qantas release a number of seats for FF upgrades and these are processed long before staff upgrades. We all know that QF will fly empty seats rather than points upgrade a pax (be them WP, CL or whatever).

Staff upgrades are processed after the flight has closed when no further pax can be added. You'll notice on domestic flights that there are always a handful of well dressed people sitting by the desk at the gate waiting for boarding passes (to see if they'll get on that flight or not). They're the same last 3-4 people who get on the plane and sit in J. They've already been through probably an hour of rude attitude from the ground staff who (I think anyway) sit there and enjoy the stress of the staff member who is wondering if they're going home or not!

I still have access to staff travel, but I prefer to pay for my flights.

I understand and agree with this.

But if it's on free staff travel (not on way to work), then IMO it would be better to OpUp status pax, and have the staff sit in whY.

Then it's win-win. Loyal FF's get a pleasant surprise, and staff get to go home/vacation or whatever it is.

 

[djfuzz]

I understand and agree with this.

But if it's on free staff travel (not on way to work), then IMO it would be better to OpUp status pax, and have the staff sit in whY.

Then it's win-win. Loyal FF's get a pleasant surprise, and staff get to go home/vacation or whatever it is.

If there is a scenario in which op-ups are required - ie oversold whY cabin - I would have thought staff will be waiting until the relevant op-ups that are required are processed and will only get a seat if there's one still available (ie they might not get on that flight full stop).

My understanding is that the only 'free' non-duty staff travel fares are long-service leave trips - and are a finite benefit. All this entitles staff to is a confirmed seat and higher priority, though I understand they still might not get their upgrade or get on the flight if the load factors are too high. As for other leisure travel, that is paid albeit at a concessional rate - and regrades are only available to certain staff or beneficiaries by their relative priority.

The issue here seems to be the old chestnut of why all available seats in premium cabins are no made available for FF upgrades, and why staff are entitled to travel in those seats when a FF couldn't. There's a relatively sound reason for both - making unrestricted upgrades opportunities available will discourage demand for fare-paying pax in premium cabins, and the only opportunity for staff who have earned the pot-luck benefit of premium regrades on leisure travel to actually get on is after all opportnities for selling commercial fare seats for those cabins themselves have been exhausted (ie the fares that actually pay their packages - including their concessional fares ). It's not an ideal situation from either side of the fence, but it is kind of fair in it's own way.

 

[TheInsider]

The main way for a Y pax to get an 'op-up' is if the Y cabin is oversold at the flight close off and have avail seats in J to seat them and the other person who has just checked in.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

If there is a scenario in which op-ups are required - ie oversold whY cabin - I would have thought staff will be waiting until the relevant op-ups that are required are processed and will only get a seat if there's one still available (ie they might not get on that flight full stop).

Take for instance a busy time of year & a 767 that has 18 J seats left, Yield will oversell Y by 18. Generally speaking these will be processed 5 hours prior to flight departure when they will look at the list of pax according to tier status etc & process the UPGs accordingly at this time.

If Yield were to leave op-ups until closer to departure you have the situation where Altea thinks it is minus 18 seats (despite there being 18 in J to cover this) so it will start putting pax on standby that are on lower fares eg X,G & O class pax with nil status despite these pax checking in early so maybe having quite a low sequence number. This would also include these pax who do OLCI as the oversale wouldn't have been cleared at this stage.

If there's staff listed on a flight they wouldn't even be considered by Yield, the oversale would be cleared first then staff may get whatever seats may be leftover at minus 15 when the flight is closed.

Also any commercial pax waitlisted for a flight on a paid J ticket (not ODU's with points) would be onloaded before staff.

IMHO re pax not getting ff point UPGs even when there's unsold seats in J, I firmly believe Yield make this decision based on hoping they will sell J seats at commercial prices. It would always come down to money & they are going to make more from a commercial pax than a staff traveller.

The main way for a Y pax to get an 'op-up' is if the Y cabin is oversold at the flight close off and have avail seats in J to seat them and the other person who has just checked in.

IME if you are Joe Blow off the street who checks in last when there's only J class seats remaining the proactive onload list in Altea will look for two WPs, regrade them, then Joe Blow will be seated in whY albeit something like 4C which the WP has just vacated. This would sometimes explain why pax will nil status get first row of economy.

 

[dfcatch]

Take for instance a busy time of year & a 767 that has 18 J seats left, Yield will oversell Y by 18. Generally speaking these will be processed 5 hours prior to flight departure when they will look at the list of pax according to tier status etc & process the UPGs accordingly at this time.

If Yield were to leave op-ups until closer to departure you have the situation where Altea thinks it is minus 18 seats (despite there being 18 in J to cover this) so it will start putting pax on standby that are on lower fares eg X,G & O class pax with nil status despite these pax checking in early so maybe having quite a low sequence number. This would also include these pax who do OLCI as the oversale wouldn't have been cleared at this stage.

If there's staff listed on a flight they wouldn't even be considered by Yield, the oversale would be cleared first then staff may get whatever seats may be leftover at minus 15 when the flight is closed.

Also any commercial pax waitlisted for a flight on a paid J ticket (not ODU's with points) would be onloaded before staff.

IMHO re pax not getting ff point UPGs even when there's unsold seats in J, I firmly believe Yield make this decision based on hoping they will sell J seats at commercial prices. It would always come down to money & they are going to make more from a commercial pax than a staff traveller.



IME if you are Joe Blow off the street who checks in last when there's only J class seats remaining the proactive onload list in Altea will look for two WPs, regrade them, then Joe Blow will be seated in whY albeit something like 4C which the WP has just vacated. This would sometimes explain why pax will nil status get first row of economy.

Thanks for the hand-on explanation guys!

Most informative.

 

[JohnK]

I don't think pax being chatty with the FA after being upgraded in-flight is necessarily an indicator of a close relationship between the two.

Believe me when I say that the conversation/interaction between cabin crew and passenger in these cases is more like what you would expect is reserved for staff/friends/family not some random passenger.

I have also seen where staff/cabin crew are in business class and then after take-off the children (note teenagers/adolescents not young kids) are brought up to sit with their mother/father.

I don't really care what happens but at the same I hate it when I see it.

 

[sweens]

Take for instance a busy time of year & a 767 that has 18 J seats left, Yield will oversell Y by 18. Generally speaking these will be processed 5 hours prior to flight departure when they will look at the list of pax according to tier status etc & process the UPGs accordingly at this time.

If Yield were to leave op-ups until closer to departure you have the situation where Altea thinks it is minus 18 seats (despite there being 18 in J to cover this) so it will start putting pax on standby that are on lower fares eg X,G & O class pax with nil status despite these pax checking in early so maybe having quite a low sequence number. This would also include these pax who do OLCI as the oversale wouldn't have been cleared at this stage.

If there's staff listed on a flight they wouldn't even be considered by Yield, the oversale would be cleared first then staff may get whatever seats may be leftover at minus 15 when the flight is closed.

Also any commercial pax waitlisted for a flight on a paid J ticket (not ODU's with points) would be onloaded before staff.

IMHO re pax not getting ff point UPGs even when there's unsold seats in J, I firmly believe Yield make this decision based on hoping they will sell J seats at commercial prices. It would always come down to money & they are going to make more from a commercial pax than a staff traveller.



IME if you are Joe Blow off the street who checks in last when there's only J class seats remaining the proactive onload list in Altea will look for two WPs, regrade them, then Joe Blow will be seated in whY albeit something like 4C which the WP has just vacated. This would sometimes explain why pax will nil status get first row of economy.

Thanks ozbeachbabe that really explains it very well...I get it.

Just to clarify my seating companion out bound was on a staff travel ticket his Aunt was a QF FA and I gather he was her nominated travel partner...he indicated that he was often given an op up.

In bound my seating companion had a paid ticket Y+ and was seated there and just before take off he was asked to move forward to a J seat...as mentioned he just said his dad had very good conections at QF...i did not ask who/why etc. but he did indicate that this was not isolated case...I just took him on face value.

 

[JetLagged]

If a staffer got an upgrade to F over me who applied for a points upgrade I'd be pissed...

We pay their wages...

Gumpy - what about the wife and 2 teenager children of a FA who happened to sit in F from Sydney to LHR while others were trying to get points upgrades? I managed to snaggle a SIN-LHR sector upgrade on poiints - but they had travelled all the way through from Sydney - and yes, chatted to the other FAs as friends of Daddies!

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Thanks ozbeachbabe that really explains it very well...I get it.

Just to clarify my seating companion out bound was on a staff travel ticket his Aunt was a QF FA and I gather he was her nominated travel partner...he indicated that he was often given an op up.

In bound my seating companion had a paid ticket Y+ and was seated there and just before take off he was asked to move forward to a J seat...as mentioned he just said his dad had very good conections at QF...i did not ask who/why etc. but he did indicate that this was not isolated case...I just took him on face value.

In the case of your seat companion outbound, if it was staff travel & he was in J then if he would paid for an upgradeable ticket (which is of course subject to space availability) & there is a seat available he's entitled to J. Op-up or operational upgrade is terminology generally used for commercial pax (ie not staff travellers) who end up travelling in a higher class of travel than the ticket they've paid for.

As for the kid on the way back - he sounds like a complete plonker. I'm sure if daddy knew anyone of note in QF the kid would've been in J from the get go so jury's out on that one.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

I have also seen where staff/cabin crew are in business class and then after take-off the children (note teenagers/adolescents not young kids) are brought up to sit with their mother/father.

I don't really care what happens but at the same I hate it when I see it.

I'd say what's happened is the parents are either operating crew or positioning crew/duty travel & their kids are booked separately which is paid for by the parents.

The only way kids under 18 can travel in J on staff travel is if they're on the same booking as an adult which in the above cases is not possible. So it's pretty much a case where the parents would (pay for a J space available ticket) if they could but they can't scenario.

If it was leisure travel obviously it would be possible for the entire family to be on the one booking so would not be an issue.

 

[Sifor]

My mate is a QF Captain and frequently receives J seats for positioning.