Who gets Priority? Staff op ups v FF op ups!

[ozbeachbabe]

I'm going to venture some thoughts here, QF staff correct me if I'm wrong (and I do so as a WP who also would love greater availability of points and op ups).

Firstly, my understanding is that upgradable staff fares are also automated by Altea, and there is no longer any discretion on the part of the ground staff - so the idea of ground staff 'looking after' others is no longer the case.

Regrades are done in order of commercial pax on standby (ie ticketed in J - not ODU's) followed by staff according to their upgrade category then date of joining etc at minus 15. Once they hit "onload" the system automatically does all the regrades at once & generates all boarding passes. On busy flights you may have 20 plus people so it would take ages if it had to be done individually.

Even though boarding passes are given out by the seat allocators at the boarding gate, at bigger airports usually the City Flyer Desk will close flight & onload standby pax etc so the only the gate agent has to do is print boarding passes & give them out. Even if only 2 J seats left & 2 staff on non-upgradeable tickets the system will select 2 WP's to go up then onload staff into Y.

I can't imagine an employee who did an upgrade that wasn't authorised not being invited into a Duty Manager's office for a 'please explain'. An employees staff number is flagged against any action done in Altea (including upgrades) so why give yourself the grief/letter on file/record of conversation/written warning?

Secondly, I don't believe staff ever get seats that FFs could have otherwise had, as they are not competing for the same pool of seats. Yield management allocates a certain proportion of seats for FF upgrades based on what they consider to be reasonable enough not to discourage them from otherwise purchasing a commercial premium fare instead of a cheaper fare and a subsidised upgrade with points. Until this allocation is exhausted, FF should be able to get a points upgrade right up until the flight closes.

Internationally I believe that is true as unlike domestic, QF don't permit ODU's on day of departure. It makes no sense to me for YMG to hold J seats for staff as they would make more from having pax redeem points for a J ODU. Not sure if the reason is for catering purposes or not. You wouldn't want to do a points upgrade on a longhaul flight if the catering wasn't assured.

Once that allocation is exhausted, yield would rather: (a) hold the remaining seats for pax buying commercial fares right up until the point the flight closes; and (b) fly with the seats empty if they can't be filled by commercial pax, again as they would rather pax paid the full fare (or an ASA) rather than pay for a cheaper fare and use points for upgrades all the time.

Surely having pax use points to upgrade even on a cheap fare is worth more to them than a seat going empty which makes them zilch.

Having established that they do not want to offer points upgrades beyond the yield-determined allocation, and that commercial pax have not filled all the premium seats on the plane - only then do staff get a look in, to fill those seats at cost plus something token. That's a lot of hoops to jump through for what is essentially an employer incentive that is part of their salary package (and even then, only for certain staff after a certain period of service), and in most cases there would be little to no such seats available on the dates they are able to travel.

Internationally yes as I believe ODU's have to be booked in 'U' class, however domestically within 3 hours of the flight I believe ODU's are done based on 'J' availability (ie if there is a physical seat available in the J cabin it may be used) once 'U' is exhausted.

Personally, I'd love for yield management to open up more seats for upgrades, or go the AA route and offer automatic space-available upgrades for elite FFs (notwithstanding any other consequences of that). But given the playing field that currently exists, I can't begrudge staff for taking a premium seat that wasn't available to me in the first place.

That's a real can of worms to open. Once a WP had received a space available upgrade eg SYD/PER for nix, they would never want to use points again never mind shock horror actually purchase a J fare.

They should do something to reward WPs for a change instead of just taking away benefits & devaluing the product, but they'd need to maybe limit it to a certain amount of times per year otherwise some WP's would consistently miss out.

I can guess the only people who can give us a definitive answer is someone from QF YMG!

 

[dfcatch]

It here where YM fail (but they won't know about it) as often a travelling staff/friend will get to sit in said empty seat. This would not generally be documented anywhere.

I have seen it happen watching from Economy; I have sat beside people it has happened to.

Agreed.

Witnessed several times. (not passing judgement on the merits of each incident, just acknowledging that it occurs).

On another note - I agree that complimentary space-available upgrades could easily be a benefit for WPs. And it would be a great benefit. All QF has to do is limit it to x number per year. That way it doesn't impact on commercial sale of J seats, as you'll still have to buy a J seat if you want to be guaranteed the seat.

NZ does this well with Gold and Gold Elite receiving 2 complimentary upgrade certificates.

 

[Joshua]

NZ does this well with Gold and Gold Elite receiving 2 complimentary upgrade certificates.

I'm quite fine with how QF handle themselves and giving little for free. But I must concur that some upgrade 'stickers' would be worthwhile. It's a relatively minor addition. At least for domestic flights.

I was randomly looking at Finnar the other day. Apple and oranges sure, but their plats get four euro segment upgrades and 2 int segment upgrades annually. Completely different eligibility I know but if QF could bring something back like the old upgrade credits at least for WP, would give the status a reason to live again.

 

[cove]

Two out of the last 4 times in First with QF there were 3 family members and a captain and first officer.
Hey I was there on points each time and I prefer the cabin to be closer to full than empty.

 

[anat0l]

NZ does this well with Gold and Gold Elite receiving 2 complimentary upgrade certificates.

How well do they do this? I hear mixed stories about this, as well as hearing conflicting accounts whether it's truly space available upgrade or not (may be based on award inventory).

In any case, it is still a free upgrade even if it is restricted more than simply space, and it'd be nice, even 2 a year is fine, and even if, say, they restricted it to at highest J class (i.e. no upgrades into F allowed).

Definitely, unless something dramatic changes about air travel in Australia, I don't really want to see what's happening in the US happen here, i.e. space available upgrades for free. What's also ridiculous in the US is that any man, woman and their dog can access some of the best awards without status, and quite often faster than loyal members can.


Anyway...this is a bit of a drag off topic now...

 

[dfcatch]

How well do they do this? I hear mixed stories about this, as well as hearing conflicting accounts whether it's truly space available upgrade or not (may be based on award inventory).

In any case, it is still a free upgrade even if it is restricted more than simply space, and it'd be nice, even 2 a year is fine, and even if, say, they restricted it to at highest J class (i.e. no upgrades into F allowed).

Definitely, unless something dramatic changes about air travel in Australia, I don't really want to see what's happening in the US happen here, i.e. space available upgrades for free. What's also ridiculous in the US is that any man, woman and their dog can access some of the best awards without status, and quite often faster than loyal members can.


Anyway...this is a bit of a drag off topic now...

I wasn't trying to comment on the operation of NZ upgrades, just the fact that there is a compromise between unlimited complimentary upgrades and premium cabins flying empty (or being filled with staff/friends to the angst of WPs who see this).

I don't have a problem with the US system, although QF yield obviously doesn't want to devalue the premium cabin.

Back on topic - I respect staff travel, and that staff travel is a major perk of working for QF (or at least it should be).

The relevance of upgrades, is that (as this thread exists for) there is angst from status pax that upgrades (points or freebies) are so restricted that it grinds peoples' gears when they see others receive what appears to be "complimentary upgrades".

I believe there is a halfway point that successfully:

- maintains the value of premium cabins

- rewards high-status pax for their loyalty with some level of complimentary upgrades

- accommodates staff to a certain degree without pi..sing off loyal paying customers.

 

[serfty]

Upgrade certificates are not relevant to this discussion; they are/were simply a way for Airlines to reward their more frequent flyers with a means to travel in premium cabins without burning points/miles.

OK, My work related domestic travel has basically reduced to nought since a company I contract too was purchased by an international conglomerate (it now easier to build a new dam than get non exec travel approved), so it has not happened to me recently.

However, over the last fifteen years I have seen staff upgraded on-board on very lightly loaded flights; both front and back.

Nudge Nudge, wink wink ...

... it has even happened to me ... of course I accepted it.

 

[TonyHancock]

I have received two on board op ups in the last 12 months. The first was because in seat power was not working. I was moved from Y+ to J. Nothing more was said.

The second time I was moved from Y to J because a mother with three children and a nanny was being an absolute pain, clearly looking for an op up. The CSM moved me to give the family more room. This was done with lots of apologies to me for bothering me and lots of thanks for helping out. When I sat in the J seat I then had the CSS come and take all of my details, i.e previous seat number, name, frequent flyer number etc.

I assumed that the crew had to justify the on board op up. Presumably they would have to do this for crew? If they get caught out and fail to do this then presumably they face some "consequences"?

 

[dfcatch]

Upgrade certificates are not relevant to this discussion; they are/were simply a way for Airlines to reward their more frequent flyers with a means to travel in premium cabins without burning points/miles.

My suggestion was simply an example of a solution to what i see as the root of the problem.

Is the problem REALLY that staff seem to be "looked after"?

Or is the problem more that legitimate upgrades into the premium cabin are difficult and hard to come by?

IF QF were to "look after" high status pax more, with for example - upgrade certificates; would the perceived problem with "staff" still be as big a deal?

That was the point I was trying to make.

(another way of wording it is - 'Are OpUps are problem - of course not! As long as they're happening to me' )

 

[serfty]

It's quite simple within the context of this thread.

... Both on the way out and back my seating companions were young guys 21+ (with no status) who had a relatives ... that ... had good conections at QF.

They both indicated that this was not a rare occurence and that it was good to be in the know at QF ..

YM Systems, IT, whatever don't come into it if there's a spare premium seat or four and compliant staff. It's cultural (or at least is has been). [Nudge Nudge, wink wink]

Of course you'd sit in a Business seat, even if quietly advised that "Catering is not assured".

 

[JohnK]

I apologise in advance JohnK, I don't want to sound like a broken record - but is the suggestion that there was FF award upgrade availability and staff got upgraded in spite of that? If so, I agree, that doesn't sound right. On the flipside, if the idea is that just because a seat is available it should be given to an FF for points instead of staff, regardless of whether the allocation has been exhausted, then see above.

No need to apologise. And yes the suggestion is that people have been refused ODU's only to find staff/family/friends sitting in those seats.

In fact we have even heard stories of AFF'ers losing premium pre-allocated seats and given middles seats further back so staff ca sit together.

Personally I don't care too much for staff benefits or rights. Paying customers should always come first but I believe some staff do not appear to care and firmly believe in staff sticking up for one another.

I know staff are an easy target, but personally I don't feel completely right about having a go at the benefits they work for, especially when they don't actually directly impact on those of others.

If staff benefits are upgrades/op-ups to business premium cabins in front of customers then I am totally against it but that is neither here nor there for this discussion.

 

[BadgerBoi]

The second time I was moved from Y to J because a mother with three children and a nanny was being an absolute pain, clearly looking for an op up. The CSM moved me to give the family more room. This was done with lots of apologies to me for bothering me and lots of thanks for helping out. When I sat in the J seat I then had the CSS come and take all of my details, i.e previous seat number, name, frequent flyer number etc.

I assumed that the crew had to justify the on board op up. Presumably they would have to do this for crew? If they get caught out and fail to do this then presumably they face some "consequences"?

No doubt justifying it as well when the miffed Mummy lodged a complaint later on. Excellent work on the part of the crew here for upgrading you and not giving in to the squeaky wheel.

 

[oz_mark]

OK, My work related domestic travel has basically reduced to nought since a company I contract too was purchased by an international conglomerate, so it has not happened to me recently.

Familiar sounding story :shock:

 

[ozbeachbabe]

In fact we have even heard stories of AFF'ers losing premium pre-allocated seats and given middles seats further back so staff ca sit together.

Personally I don't care too much for staff benefits or rights. Paying customers should always come first but I believe some staff do not appear to care and firmly believe in staff sticking up for one another.

If staff benefits are upgrades/op-ups to business premium cabins in front of customers then I am totally against it but that is neither here nor there for this discussion.

However, over the last fifteen years I have seen staff upgraded on-board on very lightly loaded flights; both front and back.

Nudge Nudge, wink wink ...

... it has even happened to me ... of course I accepted it.

I don't dispute the fact that these onboard upgrades are happening & I totally agree with you both - it's not fair, particularly when you witness the people physically get up out of their seat in whY & walk forward however I don't believe these people are staff travellers themselves.

In all these cases you mention there were spare seats in the J cabin so staff travellers on upgradeable tickets would have already been in J ie been upgraded either at checkin if the loads were very light or at the gate if there were only a few seats left. They would have already held a J boarding pass when they boarded & sat down in that seat in the J cabin.

I can only assume that these 'ring-ins' are friends of either the staff traveller or possibly cabin crew operating that flight who are only entitled to travel in economy, however I don't believe on domestic flights it was at the expense of WPs wanting ODU's as J seats would still have been available to them prior to flight close so points upgrades could have been done in the QP.

If CSMs are going to do onboard upgrades which you would hope is for a valid reason it should be done discreetly ie get pax board last & sit down in J. Having people obviously brought forward from Y to J IMHO is commercially damaging to the airline & I can understand why WP's wouldn't be happy about it - I wouldn't be either if I was in the same situation.

FWIW I'm only aware of a couple of onboard upgrades. One occasion was when a medical patient on oxygen & nurse were in 9EF & a male pax in 9D couldn't cope with the whole scenario. The CSM moved a WP from 4C into J then the guy from 9D into 4C.

The other time was an AFP guy who was travelling to MEL. Two East Timorese women were being flown to MEL, one for heart surgery. They spoke no English & had never been on a plane before but because this guy had been on their flight DIL/DRW & helped them through customs & checkin & was also going to MEL, he was a familiar face to them so the CSM thought it would be good to have him across the aisle to keep an eye on them for the flights.

 

[sweens]

My suggestion was simply an example of a solution to what i see as the root of the problem.

Is the problem REALLY that staff seem to be "looked after"?

Or is the problem more that legitimate upgrades into the premium cabin are difficult and hard to come by?

IF QF were to "look after" high status pax more, with for example - upgrade certificates; would the perceived problem with "staff" still be as big a deal?

That was the point I was trying to make.



What we need here is some balance from QF...there is no doubt that legitimate upgrades into the premium cabins are difficult to come by and a couple of upgrade certificates a year for status pax would certainly help.

Also you have got to wonder why if I am trying to spend my FF points on upgrades normally I am not able to do so when I have booked a discounted Y fare...this case was the exception...thanks QF but do keep it open.

There is no doubt that staff Nudge Nudge, wink wink op up's happens often but in my experience this rarely happens to full paying pax....some balance here please!

 

[ozbeachbabe]

QF popped my cherry last night.
BNE-SYD. QF551. Red eDeal. First row of Y (767, row 23) to J

On-line activity statement has this.

QF 551  ECONOMY/BUSINESS 25APR11 BRISBANE/SYDNEY UPGRADE REF xx_XX

I had just sat down when l got a tap on the shoulder. "Excuse me sir, could follow me?". I was a little bit confused, but she said, "l have a seat further forward". I didn't argue.

Not me but my girlfriend got upgraded on Saturday afternoon.

Was on a points redemption made by her father (gold) and was asked to
move up business just after the flight took off.

The csm made mention that she is a qff... She isn't just uses her fathers points : D

The above quotes are from the QF Operational Upgrade thread post numbers 455 &456 to be precise:

http://www.australianfrequentflyer....-qantas-operational-upgrade-thread-18198.html

 

[medhead]

I haven't read the entire thread. however, I just wanted to report an experience that I had this morning. I'll stress that I am not forming a judgement, just reporting the facts (hopefully no too one sidedly)

I'm currently travelling with the family (2+2). SWMBO has the fear of flying and hence I've been watching for upgrade seats. We got the upgrade on the way up, row 1 and it was good. The return upgrade was a bit more of a hassle, but 7 upgrade seats appeared yesterday at about T-23. I was kicking myself all night for not checking for availability just before T-24, as after that point upgrades can only be had at the airport and not online (big learning for me).

We get to BNE this morning, check in at the service desk and bypass the kiosk area that was a mess. There was still 5 upgrades showing on Expert Flyer. Looking good.

Asked for about upgrades in the J lounge and I was told there are only 2 upgrades available. This caused me a moment of confusion as I thought it was all or nothing with upgrades. Was the agent really offering to upgrade 2 of us? Anyway, I questioned this reply by saying that I'm seeing 5 upgrades available (thanks Expert Flyer mobile mode). The agent replied that yes there are purchasable fares available. I replied that I was seeing 5 U fares and showed him. That then required the agent to verify the data source and look at the phone. Then they processed the upgrades, with a "sorry about that" when handing over the new BPs.

Now I'm not sure what happened with that situation. I wonder if perhaps some business seats were being held for staff, hence posting here. But that is only a suspicion, and I'm not making any accusations. If there is a choice between conspiracy and mistake, I choose mistake - the agent probably misread.

The business fares have changed from J6 D6 U5 to J2 D2 U2 following us getting the upgrades (in case anyone is interested)

 

[reductionist]

Asked for about upgrades in the J lounge and I was told there are only 2 upgrades available. This caused me a moment of confusion as I thought it was all or nothing with upgrades. Was the agent really offering to upgrade 2 of us? Anyway, I questioned this reply by saying that I'm seeing 5 upgrades available (thanks Expert Flyer mobile mode). The agent replied that yes there are purchasable fares available. I replied that I was seeing 5 U fares and showed him. That then required the agent to verify the data source and look at the phone. Then they processed the upgrades, with a "sorry about that" when handing over the new BPs.

Great post. I'd really like to know what was going on here.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Hmmm, wonder if the CSM subscribes to the " J/F should be Adults Only" :shock:
Good on you Medhead for using all available resources to pursue the upgrades

 

[UP4014]

An interesting thread.

For info, QF staff and family are rated 1 through to 72 (I think) with 1 being QF board and 72 being the wife/husband of the catering contractor at Wagga airport. (no offence meant to catering contractors in Wagga)

The rating is based on job description and length of service.

Going back to the very first post, it's possible there is more that just having a good friend high up in QF. These "kids" could have been children of a CL member and not connected to the QF family directly via employees.

Employees and especially family, based on my own experience, never get upgraded over anyone else and don't always even get on the plane.

Matt