Who gets Priority? Staff op ups v FF op ups!

[Flying Fox]

Next time can I say I know BJ747 and get a stuff upgrade?

 

[serfty]

...
Am I wrong here?

No you are not wrong.

Seriously, there is too much fluffing around here.

We have been told how "it is supposed to happen". However it frequently does not work that way in reality. I have been travelling too long and seen too much to think otherwise.

(Including many situations like the OP's)

Many of those on staff travel do so on a space available basis. It is quite common for the agents allocating seating to look after these people.

(e.g. 2 seat left in economy, 2 seats left in Business - give them business class.)

Sometime the agents allocating seating only allocate them economy seats. Not to be deterred, on boarding they have a quiet word with the CSM. Later on, once boarded, the CSM looks after them and upgrades pro-actively since there are a couple of pointy end seats free. (Maybe catering not assured.)

It happens so often because such occurrences are difficult to prove.

 

[Alanslegal]

If a staffer got an upgrade to F over me who applied for a points upgrade I'd be pissed...

We pay their wages...

Totally agree!

My $0.02 is that QF staff on non-work related travel on either complimentary or heavily discounted employee rates should be forced to fly in economy. (Otherwise they can suck it up and pay the rates us regular flyers pay) It is soooooooooo difficult to get a points upgrade to come through as it is, so giving them a free seat or two in J is going to make me mad!

QF staff on work related travel can be allowed to fly in premium cabins, however must wear their uniform or at least something to define that they are on duty and QF PJ's don't count

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Seriously, there is too much fluffing around here.

We have been told how "it is supposed to happen". However it frequently does not work in reality. I have been travelling too long and seen too much to think otherwise.

As always you are 100% correct serfty - sounds more like an unwritten rule for staff to look after staff where possible.

 

[schmorandom]

As always you are 100% correct serfty - sounds more like an unwritten rule for staff to look after staff where possible.

As it should be...
Free premium seats are a fantastic incentive to work for an airline, and equally great for the airline because of the negligble cost of such benefits.

Happy staff who like their job = happy customers. If you want good service but don't want increased wages to increase ticket prices then this whole argument is baseless.

As has been said before, upgrades only devalue paid premium tickets.

 

[TheInsider]

As it should be...
Free premium seats are a fantastic incentive to work for an airline, and equally great for the airline because of the negligble cost of such benefits.

Happy staff who like their job = happy customers. If you want good service but don't want increased wages to increase ticket prices then this whole argument is baseless.

As has been said before, upgrades only devalue paid premium tickets.

Agree, although QF staff travel is very poor compared to most other airlines across the world.

The seats are not free. For Domestic travel, all staff who have staff travel are entitled to purchase an upgradable fare or just a Y fare. The J fare is about $10 more on a MEL-SYD for eg, but still it's not a confirmed seat.

Also with the latest fuel 'fines', staff are also affected. They now have to pay an extra $5 per flight and also an increased flight price for the unconfirmed upgradable business fare.

 

[sweens]

As it should be...
Free premium seats are a fantastic incentive to work for an airline, and equally great for the airline because of the negligble cost of such benefits.

Happy staff who like their job = happy customers. If you want good service but don't want increased wages to increase ticket prices then this whole argument is baseless.

As has been said before, upgrades only devalue paid premium tickets.

Surely you jest!

If all airlines had the attitude that staff rather than paying customers get priority on this type of benefit, they would slowly go down the sink.

Sure happy staff are important but give 1st priority to the customer, the people that pay your wages.

It would seem to me that this must be an unwritten rule at QF, the staff tend to look after fellow staff and it would seem associates as well...I am sure that the official policy is that this is not supposed to happen.

Can anyone out there let us know the official company line on this is?

 

[Alanslegal]

As it should be...
Free premium seats are a fantastic incentive to work for an airline, and equally great for the airline because of the negligble cost of such benefits.

Happy staff who like their job = happy customers. If you want good service but don't want increased wages to increase ticket prices then this whole argument is baseless.

As has been said before, upgrades only devalue paid premium tickets.

Welcome to AFF but I disagree with your post.

When a frequent flyer misses out on that points upgrade because a staff member or their family gets that seat, then it does cost something .... its called loss of goodwill. The points upgrade "lottery" is a lottery, a gamble, a risk frequent flyers take to hopefully get a better seat, in a better cabin.

Why is it a lottery? Well because you register first and wait up to 2 months, 30 days and 19 hours for you to find out if you are upgraded or not. QF are masters at the upgrade game that they make it sooooo difficult to get an upgrade, and its based on a magnitude of different factors. As it is difficult as it is, I do not see a devalue of their premium cabins. QF I believe never ever completely fills their premium cabin even if there are another 20 passengers who have applied for an upgrade, its just their way of saying "you want a nice seat, well pay for it, as we can't guarantee that points upgrade".

Happy staff = Happy workers = Love their job = Better service. I do not disagree to this, but at what point is "helping your friend" out with that complimentary seat in Y+, J, F ..... stealing from the airline, cheating the system, or at least at the minimum, pi**ing off a WP or SG who tried soooooo hard to get that upgrade, and got nothing because a QF staffer is occupying it.

 

[serfty]

Surely you jest!
...

New member? One Post? That one post seemingly looking for little more than a reaction?

Having over 25000 posts on Frequent Travel related fora, I am not taking that post, nor the poster, too seriously.

 

[JetLagged]

Happy staff = Happy workers = Love their job = Better service. I do not disagree to this, but at what point is "helping your friend" out with that complimentary seat in Y+, J, F ..... stealing from the airline, cheating the system, or at least at the minimum, pi**ing off a WP or SG who tried soooooo hard to get that upgrade, and got nothing because a QF staffer is occupying it.

Very well said, Alanslegal - couldn't agree with you more. As I said earlier, when you don't get an upgrade on first leg because FA has his wife and two kids in F all the way from SYD-LHR - and because Qantas play the game as you said - well, ones good will starts to evaporate accordingly......

 

[djfuzz]

I'm going to venture some thoughts here, QF staff correct me if I'm wrong (and I do so as a WP who also would love greater availability of points and op ups).

Firstly, my understanding is that upgradable staff fares are also automated by Altea, and there is no longer any discretion on the part of the ground staff - so the idea of ground staff 'looking after' others is no longer the case.

Secondly, I don't believe staff ever get seats that FFs could have otherwise had, as they are not competing for the same pool of seats. Yield management allocates a certain proportion of seats for FF upgrades based on what they consider to be reasonable enough not to discourage them from otherwise purchasing a commercial premium fare instead of a cheaper fare and a subsidised upgrade with points. Until this allocation is exhausted, FF should be able to get a points upgrade right up until the flight closes.

Once that allocation is exhausted, yield would rather: (a) hold the remaining seats for pax buying commercial fares right up until the point the flight closes; and (b) fly with the seats empty if they can't be filled by commercial pax, again as they would rather pax paid the full fare (or an ASA) rather than pay for a cheaper fare and use points for upgrades all the time.

Having established that they do not want to offer points upgrades beyond the yield-determined allocation, and that commercial pax have not filled all the premium seats on the plane - only then do staff get a look in, to fill those seats at cost plus something token. That's a lot of hoops to jump through for what is essentially an employer incentive that is part of their salary package (and even then, only for certain staff after a certain period of service), and in most cases there would be little to no such seats available on the dates they are able to travel.

Personally, I'd love for yield management to open up more seats for upgrades, or go the AA route and offer automatic space-available upgrades for elite FFs (notwithstanding any other consequences of that). But given the playing field that currently exists, I can't begrudge staff for taking a premium seat that wasn't available to me in the first place.

 

[david870mdg]

Happy staff = Happy workers = Love their job = Better service. .

I have had some pretty terrible service on QF (unfortunately on the majority of flights...)
IMOE.
So can not agree with this comment.

 

[serfty]

...
Once that allocation is exhausted, yield would rather: (a) hold the remaining seats for pax buying commercial fares right up until the point the flight closes; and (b) fly with the seats empty if they can't be filled by commercial pax, again as they would rather pax paid the full fare (or an ASA) rather than pay for a cheaper fare and use points for upgrades all the time. ...

It here where YM fail (but they won't know about it) as often a travelling staff/friend will get to sit in said empty seat. This would not generally be documented anywhere.

I have seen it happen watching from Economy; I have sat beside people it has happened to.

 

[Alanslegal]

I have had some pretty terrible service on QF (unfortunately on the majority of flights...)
IMOE.
So can not agree with this comment.

I was referring to the general principle that a "happy worker = better service" and not commenting about QF's service specifically. So maybe we are on the same wavelength afterall re: QF's service overall given my comment in this new post

 

[JohnK]

Once that allocation is exhausted, yield would rather: (a) hold the remaining seats for pax buying commercial fares right up until the point the flight closes; and (b) fly with the seats empty if they can't be filled by commercial pax, again as they would rather pax paid the full fare (or an ASA) rather than pay for a cheaper fare and use points for upgrades all the time.

It here where YM fail (but they won't know about it) as often a travelling staff/friend will get to sit in said empty seat. This would not generally be documented anywhere.

I have seen it happen watching from Economy; I have sat beside people it has happened to.

Totally agree. I have also witnessed many times where staff/friends of staff have received upgrades to premium cabins on board and I am certain that this has not been documented anywhere for people to scrutinise.

 

[djfuzz]

It here where YM fail (but they won't know about it) as often a travelling staff/friend will get to sit in said empty seat. This would not generally be documented anywhere.

I have seen it happen watching from Economy; I have sat beside people it has happened to.

I don't quite follow serfty, as that's the very point I was trying to make - allocating empty seats to staff has nothing to do with yield itself, but the fact that only a certain number of seats are available for FF points upgrades does.

The empty seats that remain after commercial pax have been catered for and the FF upgrade allocation has been exhausted are the only ones that are made available to staff. Quite often that means there will be no seats for them; and if it happens at all, it would happen at the gate, as pax finish boarding the plane and all opportunities for making a buck from that seat are gone. That's the staff benefit - waiting until the last moment in the (possibly vain) hope that someone won't walk in and pay for that seat.

The facts that:

• there is a limited points upgrade allocation for FFs; and
• some staff and their beneficiaries are entitled to upgrade to J on a space-available basis,

are two separate propositions.

If you don't accept the former, perhaps there's an argument to be made that existing YM is inefficient as allowing a greater allocation of FF upgrades will further encourage loyalty and thereby indirectly improve yield, outweighing the benefit of encouraging pax who want a confirmed premium seat to pay the commercial fare. I assume if they were halfway competent that's something they would have factored in (but then again, anytime access removal might suggest the opposite).

If you don't accept the latter, then I guess one can hope QF (and other airlines) 'enhances' out such benefits. I'm sure on some level they are doing so already, but I imagine that getting rid of them entirely would cause other problems for them - and would not necessarily make the idea of increasing FF upgrade opportunities more viable.

[Edit] Apologies, I do take your point that sometimes this happens on board in what appears to be an ad hoc fashion. Without having seen it happen myself, all I can say is that it may be that they were entitled to the upgrade but for some reason they weren't given their new boarding pass before they boarded. I would say that that is possible, though now unlikely due to Altea. On the other hand, it is possible (though again, I would have thought unlikely) that certain flight crew stick their necks out for other staff. I would have thought the repercussions of breaching staff travel rules would have discouraged such behaviour, but concede that they may not be effectively enforced.

 

[JohnK]

The empty seats that remain after commercial pax have been catered for and the FF upgrade allocation has been exhausted are the only ones that are made available to staff. Quite often that means there will be no seats for them; and if it happens at all, it would happen at the gate, as pax finish boarding the plane and all opportunities for making a buck from that seat are gone. That's the staff benefit - waiting until the last moment in the (possibly vain) hope that someone won't walk in and pay for that seat.

Do take note that it has been mentioned quite a lot on AFF that people requesting points upgrades and being refused only to find empty seats on board or dead-heading crew or staff/friends of staff sitting in these seats.

And also lets assume that Altea has made recommendations for op-ups on oversold flights. What is to stop check-in staff, lounge staff or gate staff from overriding that recommendation and handing out the op-up to staff/family of staff/friends of staff?

 

[djfuzz]

Do take note that it has been mentioned quite a lot on AFF that people requesting points upgrades and being refused only to find empty seats on board or dead-heading crew or staff/friends of staff sitting in these seats.

And also lets assume that Altea has made recommendations for op-ups on oversold flights. What is to stop check-in staff, lounge staff or gate staff from overriding that recommendation and handing out the op-up to staff/family of staff/friends of staff?

I apologise in advance JohnK, I don't want to sound like a broken record - but is the suggestion that there was FF award upgrade availability and staff got upgraded in spite of that? If so, I agree, that doesn't sound right. On the flipside, if the idea is that just because a seat is available it should be given to an FF for points instead of staff, regardless of whether the allocation has been exhausted, then see above.

I know staff are an easy target, but personally I don't feel completely right about having a go at the benefits they work for, especially when they don't actually directly impact on those of others.

 

[N860CR]

As always you are 100% correct serfty - sounds more like an unwritten rule for staff to look after staff where possible.

I found that when on staff travel I would be treated like the scum of the earth! I think the ground staff deep down want to be rude to just about everyone but control themselves with the paying pax. When a non-rev staff member comes up, there's a chance to really let their true colours shine!

Service from the crew varied from friendly (more often) to absolutley awful sometimes. In my opinion, I didn't see the staff going out of their way to be in the slighest to look after other staff (although I'm sure some do).

I know the point has been made, but to drill it right in, upgrading staff CANNOT take a frequent flyer upgrade seat unless there are no FF upgrade requests. FF upgrades are processed long before staff upgrades. If a staff member is upgraded, they are in a seat that would otherwise fly empty regardless of the number of upgrade requests.

If the complaint is that QF aren't releasing enough FF upgrade seats, then that is a totally different issue and does not relate to staff upgrades.

 

[thewinchester]

And also lets assume that Altea has made recommendations for op-ups on oversold flights. What is to stop check-in staff, lounge staff or gate staff from overriding that recommendation and handing out the op-up to staff/family of staff/friends of staff?

Altea is structured to prevent this generally, as to override its recommendations you need either access rights or when on-board, cabin managers perogative.

And as we should know, immediate family of flight crew on board normally rank high on the priority list anyway. Friends however should be at the back of the list, and Altea's recommendations should be the arbiter.