10,000 bonus points per 20 transactions

[lovetravellingoz]

The example of multiple purchases at the same store on the same day has been well covered here (probably by you), and the general consensus that it's not, in the words of AMEX (also quoted by you), manipulating transactions.

I hope this puts you at ease, but I reckon you're pannicking for no reason.

1/ I am not panicking. I view this as an opportunity to earn a large number of points and am doing so in way which I believe will give Amex no grounds to exclude me from the Promotion either completely or partially.
2/ I intend to earn a large points bonus
3/ I do not intend to risk that bonus by having racked up 900 transactions at one store during the promotion. Amex may say it is ok...or they may say that is abuse and so all promotional bonus points will not be awarded which is in the T&C of MR as being their right.
4/ General consensus counts for squat. Amexes T&C states that they are the sole judge. Me quoting Forumites on here that it was deemed to be ok by general consensus will carry no weight with Amex.

As per my earlier posts I think it will get back to what can be deemed reasonable.

More activity is reasonable.

But no-one knows exactly how many tx in multiple activity at one store on one day will be deemed by Amex unreasonable.

The point of my earlier post is that Amex would probably ingnore a day here or there of such activity...but rack up a lot of tx each and every day at one store ....and you may find that in 10 weeks time that you get an unappy result.

For me...I will not be risking it. But yes when I visit Myers I will still do 2 or 3 tx.

But feel free to if you wish to...that is your call.

 

[bazzam]

From the link americanexpress.com/australia/bonuspointsfaq

FAQs Membership Rewards Everyday Spending Bonus Points Offer

How do I know if the bonus point limit applies to me?
The amended Terms and Conditions, including the maximum of 10,000 bonus points per month, apply to all Cardmembers who enrolled in the offer from Saturday, 20 September.

Does the new limit mean that the maximum number of points I can earn in a month is 10,000?
10,000 per month is the maximum number of bonus points. You will still earn all the Membership Rewards points you would have been entitled to without the offer.

The terms and conditions state that there are no limits. How can you introduce a limit on the maximum number of bonus points that can be earned?

The invitation to participate in the offer was sent to a targeted group of Cardmembers. It proved so popular that many Cardmembers told their family, friends and other people they know about the offer and provided them with the details to enrol.

Rather than put an end to the offer, we decided that the best way to ensure that as many Cardmembers as possible could benefit was to amend the terms and conditions so that they were consistent with the original intent of the offer.

I was unable to enrol as I was told there were operational issues. Will I be credited the bonus points I would have earned had I been able to enrol when I first tried?

We can only capture activity from the time of enrolment. You will only be awarded the bonus points you have earned from the time you enrolled.

What were the 'operational issues' which prevented you from enrolling Cardmembers in the offer?

The invitation to participate in the offer was sent to a targeted group of Cardmembers. It proved so popular that many Cardmembers told their family, friends and other people they know about the offer and provided them with the details to enrol.

To be able to manage the unexpected demand we had to redirect additional resources and review our processes to ensure we could confirm Cardmembers were eligible before enrolling. This required us to suspend enrolments for a short period.

How will Cardmembers already enrolled in the offer be affected by the changes you have made?

All Cardmembers enrolled in the offer will be entitled to bonus points based on the terms and conditions communicated to them before they enrolled.

A limit of 10,000 bonus points per month applies to Cardmembers who enrolled from Saturday, 20 September.

How can American Express change the terms and conditions of an offer once it has been made?

Under the terms and conditions of the Membership Rewards program we have the right to make changes to offers if we think it is necessary.

The amended terms and conditions have been communicated to Cardmembers prior to enrolment - either by our call centre teams or on the enrolment page on our website.

Why was the offer made to some Cardmembers and not others?

This year we have made a significant effort to increase the number of businesses where American Express Cards are welcomed. The purpose of the offer was to encourage Cardmembers to spend with these businesses.

Cardmembers were selected based on:
Where they live – in areas where we had signed the most businesses
How often they use their Card – the offer was structured an incentive on a Cardmembers current and likely use.
It is common practice for American Express and other organisations to target offers at specific customers.

How do I know if I will keep all the points I have earned?

You are entitled to the bonus points based on the terms and conditions communicated to you before you enrolled.

A Cardmember only has a concern if they have acted inappropriately or have not used their Card in accordance with the terms and conditions of the Membership Rewards program.

We will be reviewing all activity covered by the offer to identify cases of suspected misuse. Cardmembers who are found to have acted inappropriately risk forfeiting any points earned through the promotion.

What do we mean by eligible transactions?

We mean the types of legitimate purchases that you make everyday, like buying a coffee, picking up lunch or a movie ticket.

Unfortunately we've identified cases where Cardmembers have been found to have intentionally manipulated transactions in order to obtain additional bonus points. For example, splitting a bill that would normally be paid as one transaction into dozens of small transactions.

 

[ColinP]

The other problem that I can see with your theory is that you still do not know for certian if the bonus points are uncapped. If not uncapped you could end up paying the surcharge for transations which are not going to earn bonus points anyway.

I'm certain that the bonus points are uncapped. It said so in the original T&Cs and it was reiterated by the CSR on the phone when I enrolled.

I paid a surcharge to use my Amex yesterday at JB HiFi. Normally I would use Visa but I decided that it was worth paying the surcharge to gain 1,000 bonus points. If it turns out that I don't receive those bonus points (and I have no reason to think that I wont) then the fact that I am out of pocket because Amex mislead me can only help my argument if it comes to that.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Anyhow, here in reality-land, a "payment scheme" is not bill splitting at the behest of the payer. Just because you have the option to spread your annual (rates, footy club, insurance, etc etc) payment over 12 months does not mean that you're splitting the bill. There is a world of difference between paying a bill in small amounts (when that bill is normally paid in one transaction) and paying your "annual account" in instalments at the debtor's offer.
.

I think that you either did not read all of my post, or failed to understand what I wrote.

Yes there is a world of difference...which is why I included both examples.

I clearly indicated that bill splitting as in a payment scheme was valid.

But that over the top bill splitting would be termed abuse.

As for your time argument. If I knew that it would be deemed a valid tx...I would more than happily sit down and put through 1 cent ( or $1 or even $5 or $10 etc) tx for any bill. At 1000 points per tx I would be very well remunerated by the standards of many.

Say 1 tx per minute.. = 60,000 FF points per hour tax free too!!!

 

[bazzam]

I'm certain that the bonus points are uncapped. It said so in the original T&Cs and it was reiterated by the CSR on the phone when I enrolled.

I paid a surcharge to use my Amex yesterday at JB HiFi. Normally I would use Visa but I decided that it was worth paying the surcharge to gain 1,000 bonus points. If it turns out that I don't receive those bonus points (and I have no reason to think that I wont) then the fact that I am out of pocket because Amex mislead me can only help my argument if it comes to that.

From the FAQs if you joined before 20 September then points uncapped. If you joined after then its capped monthly.

 

[holo]

From the FAQs if you joined before 20 September then points uncapped. If you joined after then its capped monthly.

yep, quite clear really

 

[lovetravellingoz]

From the FAQs if you joined before 20 September then points uncapped. If you joined after then its capped monthly.

Well yes.....but Amex may well try and argue that some pre-Sept 20 registrants were not validly regsitered..and so will cap them.

Several forumites have reported being told that those who were not on the targetted list will be capped despite pre-Sept 20 Registration.

Some such forumites have indicated that they will argue that they were accepted with T&C confirmed to them.

• I would "guess" that those who registered by phone and who were hence read the T&C after they registered, would have a stronger case than those that registered via the website only (Amex may argue that their offer was only to their list and that possession of the right password in itself does not constitute a valid regsitration). However I am no lawyer by any means.

 

[vet]

Someone made the point that Amex won't care if forumites stated they too were mislead. The Finance Ombudsman Office told me there is a public interest factor here with possible systemic problems they'll look into. A copy of 180 pages of posts might well help them decide to take a good look in Amex being judge, jury and executioner of a situation created by Amex's drafting failures. So I think regulators would regard poster's claims as relevant. Also I for one would swear a stat dec or affidavit for forumites if asked via private message to swear up to what the Amex CSR told me when I joined. I'd then hope the regulator would decide what the pre20th Sept terms mean, and I'd hope it'd extract, for free, an enforceable undertaking from Amex to award us our bonus points.

 

[rodgerbranch]

Clear as Mud

From the FAQs if you joined before 20 September then points uncapped. If you joined after then its capped monthly.

yep, quite clear really

I remember a few posts ago someone (who registered before 19th without CARD) called AMEX and he was told that he was OUT of the Unlimited promo.

He was very angry cos the CSR told him AMEX didn't have to contact people like him to let them know the were Capped.

 

[vet]

Some such forumites have indicated that they will argue that they were accepted with T&C confirmed to them.

• I would "guess" that those who registered by phone and who were hence read the T&C after they registered, would have a stronger case than those that registered via the website only (Amex may argue that their offer was only to their list and that possession of the right password in itself does not constitute a valid regsitration). However I am no lawyer by any means.

My take is that the phone call is the whole contract unless amex mentioned there was a promotion (ie with terms hidden away somewhere) or amex's csr told the caller that there were printed terms. I draw on my success in a dispute about a car - luckily I refused to sign a contract that was handed to me after the deal was done and paid for. I also refuse to accept amex has terminated the agreement by breach:- I want the points they owe me from 2rd Sept or so til 31 December. So I'm glad they say I have to wait 10 weeks for bonuses to appear. I can run up points in that time, on things like the Coles/Shell shop for cigarettes and milk. (Its the closest shop to me, and takes amex unlike others).

 

[Happy Dude]

...snip.

I agree with what you're saying, but you seem to be answering your own concerns about the validity or "reasonableness" of your transactions. The fact that you can justify multiple transactions at Myer as reasonable, but when I point out that heaps here also agree but that means "squat", indicates a certain level of panic.

I envy the person with enough time to process bills 1c at a time.

 

[futaris]

This thread reminds me of the Pudding Guy or the Radisson goldpoints Magazine offer.

Have a look at these threads:

photos

112.5 miles/$1 spent on mag subscriptions - FlyerTalk Forums
Post your GOLDPOINTS horror stories here... - FlyerTalk Forums
Post Your GOLDPOINTS Success Stories Here ... - FlyerTalk Forums

And of course the AAdvantage Kellogg's promo...

Did I leave any out?

 

[kamchatsky]

I agree with what you're saying, but you seem to be answering your own concerns about the validity or "reasonableness" of your transactions. The fact that you can justify multiple transactions at Myer as reasonable, but when I point out that heaps here also agree but that means "squat", indicates a certain level of panic.

I envy the person with enough time to process bills 1c at a time.

Why envy? Someone would just write a script to regularly send http POST messages to the Bill Payment server with payment details (all in $1 or 1cent). This can be done quite quickly if you know the format of bill payment message (and you need some web/script programming skills). Just let the script run and leave it overnight!

 

[vet]

This thread reminds me of the Pudding Guy or the Radisson goldpoints Magazine offer.

Have a look at these threads:

photos

112.5 miles/$1 spent on mag subscriptions - FlyerTalk Forums
Post your GOLDPOINTS horror stories here... - FlyerTalk Forums
Post Your GOLDPOINTS Success Stories Here ... - FlyerTalk Forums

And of course the AAdvantage Kellog's promo...

Did I leave any out?

Is there something somewhere about a Citibank (I think) and some promo of points for writing cheques. I heard people wrote cheques to themselves, got points, re-banked the money, wrote another cheque to themselves, got points, etc.

I will say that someone like Amex will know these practices and will be hard presed explaining why it didnt draft clear terms to ban them (and why they didn't insert a sunset clause such as 'the deal expires when we give away 1 kerzillion points').

 

[oz_mark]

So Amex had to rule that out now.

But as I mentioned above Amex have cautioned against bill splitting without defining exactly how many is rorting the system.

I dare say it would be almost impossible to define. One can look at one set of figures (e.g. 5 transactions at DJ's in one day) versus another ($1200 phone bill paid in $1 transactions) and know that one is ok, and one is not. Problem is defining where it stops being ok and becomes abuse. I don't think there is a simple answer to that, and perhaps they will err on the side of caution.

Checking on my MR account this morning transactions dated in October still have not had the normal MR points applied for me. Also, was a good thing I put in a spare transaction on 30Sep, as a transaction from a week ago appeared this morning with a transaction date of yesterday

 

[docjames]

From a page or two ago (I can't keep up with this thread!)

I have Patinum as as posted by others i am now getting 2pts/$ vs 1.5pts/$. Hope this doesnt stop 10000pts / unlimited pts offer.

 

[rodgerbranch]

Defining will be no problem

I dare say it would be almost impossible to define. One can look at one set of figures (e.g. 5 transactions at DJ's in one day) versus another ($1200 phone bill paid in $1 transactions) and know that one is ok, and one is not. Problem is defining where it stops being ok and becomes abuse. I don't think there is a simple answer to that, and perhaps they will err on the side of caution.

Checking on my MR account this morning transactions dated in October still have not had the normal MR points applied for me. Also, was a good thing I put in a spare transaction on 30Sep, as a transaction from a week ago appeared this morning with a transaction date of yesterday

Defining will be no problem. They will look at suspicious transactions then will look at your previous months statements. If you used to pay some bills in one go before and now you are splitting them in small payments then you are OUT.

As an act of "GOOD WILL" the may offer you to CAP all your points to 10K per month.:mrgreen:

 

[bazzam]

Just had a look at the original t&cs from the postcard and the original offer was "subject to the terms and conditions of the membership rewards program".

The terms of the rewards program clearly state

"14.3 We reserve the right to change this agreement at any time with or without
notice including, but not limited to (i) fees; (ii) points accrual, conversion and
redemption rates; (iii) providers or suppliers of any points, frequent traveller
rewards, non-frequent traveller rewards or any product or service obtained
through the transfer, conversion or redemption of points.

14.4 Fraud and abuse relating to the earning of points in the program or redemption
of rewards, including transfer of points to participating frequent traveller
programs, may result in forfeiture of points as well as cancellation of the
program account."

So basically Amex can change this current program as they see fit with or without notice. I think we just have to accept that as this was clearly stated in the initial t&cs.

 

[bazzam]

Just had a look at the original t&cs from the postcard and the original offer was "subject to the terms and conditions of the membership rewards program".

The terms of the rewards program clearly state

"14.3 We reserve the right to change this agreement at any time with or without
notice including, but not limited to (i) fees; (ii) points accrual, conversion and
redemption rates; (iii) providers or suppliers of any points, frequent traveller
rewards, non-frequent traveller rewards or any product or service obtained
through the transfer, conversion or redemption of points.

14.4 Fraud and abuse relating to the earning of points in the program or redemption
of rewards, including transfer of points to participating frequent traveller
programs, may result in forfeiture of points as well as cancellation of the
program account."

So basically Amex can change this current program as they see fit with or without notice. I think we just have to accept that as this was clearly stated in the initial t&cs.

And I'd be very surprised if thousands of 1c transactions would not fall into the fraud & abuse condition so you risk losing all your points.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

I agree with what you're saying, but you seem to be answering your own concerns about the validity or "reasonableness" of your transactions. The fact that you can justify multiple transactions at Myer as reasonable, but when I point out that heaps here also agree but that means "squat", indicates a certain level of panic.

I envy the person with enough time to process bills 1c at a time.

I am not panicking at all.

Myers would be reasonable as people pre-promtion were al ready doing it. I myself have have done it many many times.

Have I ever gone to Myers 10 times in the one day though? And more to the point have I ever gone to Myers 10 times per day 100 days in a row?

Then take a business such as IGA which has check out on exit...without Departmental Regsiters and the ability to argue that ten transactions is reasonable starts to weaken dramatically.

Might someone on this forum condsider doing so as reasonable? Yes they may...but if Amex decides it is not reasonable, then their opinion will count for squat.

I am just taking a considered approach to maximising my point earn while minimising any risk of not gaining the points. Part of this is understanding what the "rules" are. Which in this case is very subjective as Amex has not been crystal clear.

I view this promotion as a once in a liftetime opportunity and would fully expect to be never eligible for it's like again.

I am also not doing 1 cent transactions...but as I said if I knew I 100% would get points for it and that Amex would not call it abuse I would quite happily spend several hours most evenings doing just that.

Do the math...120,000 points per day for 100 days - 12million points...

For 12 million points I would happily make time and spend 200 hours over 12 weeks to earn them. Not a bad part-time job I would have thought

However Amnex are not allowing it, and I never thought they would despite having bill splitting occur to be early on. But I was also awre of the general clauses of the MR program and so was not tempted to try it.