2015 Gallipoli Ballot - 100th anniversary of the ANZAC landings

[medhead]

Medhed, I assume YOU were there ...

Don't make damn excuses for people doing the wrong thing !!

If YOU were there, then you would KNOW, there was PLENTY of seating available in the stands, AND, plenty of places to go OUTSIDE the War Cemetery, if you NEEDED to lay down and sleep.

I don't know what your background is - whether or not you have served in the ADF - but there ARE protocols for War Cemeteries such as Lone Pine.

I have heard this garbage from a number of others - about the deceased diggers being happy that Australians remember them etc. etc.
and they would love to have people lay on their graves ...

THAT, is total garbage !!!

Your notion, that 'every inch of the place is a grave' is true to a point - but when a particular place is SPECIFICALLY designated as the resting place of THE ONE INDIVIDUAL ..... then your premise is to be disregarded.

An Australian War Cemetery is AUSTRALIAN Commonwealth territory. There are rules that go with being on that territory.

I'll be watching with interest, what further media reports will surface - when War Graves Commission responds to the complaints they have received.

I don't know. The photos I've already posted don't give you some clue as to my location?

There was also plenty of room in the stands for you to get out of the pathways around the lines of headstones, plenty of room to stop standing around like brown's cows in the way. It was just as disrespectful to have all those people milling around in a commonwealth cemetery laughing and chatting and judging others.

If you bothered to get off your high horse and actually read the head stones you would've found that a large number of them do not mark a specific final resting place. "Believed to be in the cemetery" - that means anywhere there, not under that headstone. The whole site is a grave. Standing around like a gaggle of geese is just as disrespectful. The fact that some people buried there have headstones doesn't change the fact that others buried their don't have headstones. Do we only respect those with a marker?

As for remembering them being totally cough, what they'd rather be forgotten? If ever I heard cough that has to be it. ANZAC day was started by the returned service men/women to remember the fallen. Don't tell me it's cough to say they'd want to be remembered.

As for plenty of places outside the cemetery - if you weren't standing around judging others you'd realise that's complete cough. In fact, I'd be interested to hear you solution of what to do with 10000 people of 4-5 hours on that site.

Why do you find it necessary to attack almost everyone you disagree with? You can't just state that you have a different view? My views are as valid as yours so please lay off demeaning comments such as "blissfully unaware" at least when you are dealing with my comments. I was not there on Anzac Day this year but have been to Gallipoli before and know exactly the layout of Lone Pine. I continue to find it disrespectful and disgusting that people are lounging and apparently picnicking amongst the gravestones. I think that they should know better. If you have a different view that is fine by me.

You've based you views on a completely false assumption. You weren't there, and you've made a false assumption. It is hard to find validity in views formed in this way. It is interesting that you start of by attacking me instead of admitting you got it WRONG. As for picnicking - there has been not suggestion of that here.

It is you views based on a false assumption that I've attacked, not to mention your attack on a couple of people in a picture without considering what was happening on the other side of the camera.

Please let's hear your views about a mob of people not sitting in the stands, blocking the means of egress and ingress of others, making stepping over rows of gardens and headstones the quickest way to get to, say, the toilets. It is hypocritical for people to accuse others of disrespect when they are the cause of the problem.

Oh and if you're "reporting on" ANZAC day, can I assume you're a media type. You know, I didn't see Kochie on the walk up Artillery Road. I didn't see any media types in the crowd waiting to be released from the dawn service. I didn't see them having to find a small patch of standing room. If you are a media type, who has reported on the Gallipoli services in the past, I don't see how you'd have much awareness of what it's like to be in the crowd.

 

[QF WP]

[Mod Hat On]
Alright, I think it's time for everybody to take a deep breath, count back from 10 and then continue ON TOPIC please, rather than the tangent this was wandering down.
[/Mod Hat On]

 

[amaroo]

FWIW I found the standing/sitting to be acceptable. We didn't do it (stayed in our seats) but I can see why others did.

The area is small and was used as the general staging area for bus groups getting ready to depart.

What I did find totally unacceptable were the ones using the headstones as a backrest, seat or leg rest

Was interesting that the announcer saw fit to broadcast that people needed to remember where they were and that the SAS were milling in the crowd and were getting upset.

That intervention made many think about their behaviour

 

[QF WP]

What I did find totally unacceptable were the ones using the headstones as a backrest, seat or leg rest

Was interesting that the announcer saw fit to broadcast that people needed to remember where they were and that the SAS were milling in the crowd and were getting upset.

That intervention made many think about their behaviour 

Oh, I love that - definitely don't want to get them upset .

 

[medhead]

Oh, I love that - definitely don't want to get them upset .

Yet I didn't see anyone using the headstones as a backrest or pillow. I also don't recall any mention of the SAS. I know Mark Donelson was there not at the invitation of DVA or the government but working for channel 7. Pretty pathetic that apparently none of the current living VC winners are not at such an event with the VIPs.

In any case, the point remains that 10000 people hanging around on a cemetery for hours is destroys the peace and respect of the place by its nature. I think it's worthwhile reflecting on that before pointing fingers at others. Judge not lest you be judge.

Out of interest how many went to the Johnson's jolly cemetery to pay their respects. Or looked at the trench works over that side of the 400 plateau? Or even when back down to shell green?

 

[Pushka]

http://www.cruisecritic.com.au/blog/live-from-the-gallipoli-cruise-on-msc-orchestra/

This is a report from the cruise ship my friends are on.

 

[QF WP]

Yet I didn't see anyone using the headstones as a backrest or pillow. I also don't recall any mention of the SAS.

However just because you didn't see or hear these points, doesn't mean it didn't happen - I trust Rick93's photo wasn't photoshopped and amaroo's hearing is pretty good.

I know Mark Donelson was there not at the invitation of DVA or the government but working for channel 7. Pretty pathetic that apparently none of the current living VC winners are not at such an event with the VIPs.

What they all decided to do is there own decision. Mark Donaldson and Ben Roberts Smith chose to work for Channel 7 and I, for one, think that was a coup to have their experience on the day, on the ground. Daniel Keighran decided to stay in Australia and attended a number of functions (Canberra early morning service and later at the MCG to toss the coin for the AFL match amongst the ones where I saw him). Keith Payne decided to attend the Currumbin service. I respect their choices, no matter that it may not suit the Government.

 

[Danger]

Had an interesting little one down at the ferry terminal area near the train station in the old town. Right in front of a bench within about 1m of 3 big looking guys just sitting there was 2x 100 lira notes on the ground. The notes looked like photocopies, but hard to tell from a glimpse. Mum, of course, spots them, says "are you going to pick those up" and starts to dive towards the notes. Thankfully I was in a position to block her while replying "No". Wish I had of been quick enough to tell the nearest guy he'd drop some money.

The shoebrush. The shoe cleaner spots his target then walks on past. Just ahead of you a brush accidentally drops from his basket. Being nice people you call out to him. He turns around and as a thank you he offers to clean your shoes for free. At the end of the clean he says he has a pregnant wife and asks for money.

We were scammed once but we didn't really have any money on us. We had just arrived and were walking around the block. Eventually he gave up as we told him at the getgo we had no money.

From then on we would watch for future brushes. We just walked on past without saying anything so they had to turn around themselves.

Here is a series of photos from one of them. We spotted this guy sitting on a small wall ahead of us. He then got up as he saw us tourists and then walked ahead.

He had hurried ahead and caught the pedestrian lights but we slowed down and missed them. So he waited for us at the lights.

(Apologies for dodgy photos. I didn't want to make it obvious we were taking photos of them. )

We almost caught up to him then he started walking again. Then whoopsie, he dropped the brush.

This was right next to Taksim Sq - Intercontinental.

WOW! It's as I feared. I had one try to take me for a ride, too. He walked past me, dropped the brush, I picked it up and gave it to him, he insisted on polishing my boots. After numerous declines from me I eventually gave in. And when he'd finished, he told me I owed him money. I laughed and walked off with him raising his voice and protesting. I was literally five steps from the grounds of the Grand Hyatt (incidentally, opposite the InterCon) and couldn't have cared less.

My parents will be there in next week. I'll tell them to leave all brushes on the ground.

 

[Groundhog]

Pretty pathetic that apparently none of the current living VC winners are not at such an event with the VIPs.

I agree with this. I mentioned this to my wife at the time. From limited research (may not be 100% accurate ) it seems that there are 4 living recipients of the VC, 1 from Vietnam and 3 from Afghanistan and i thought they could have been a part of the proceedings considering 7 VC's were awarded during the Gallipoli campaign. Perhaps they were asked and turned it down?

 

[amaroo]

We saw Ben Roberts-Smith at lunch on the 24th.

 

[QF WP]

I agree with this. I mentioned this to my wife at the time. From limited research (may not be 100% accurate ) it seems that there are 4 living recipients of the VC, 1 from WW2, 1 from Vietnam and 2 from Afghanistan and i thought they could have been a part of the proceedings considering 7 VC's were awarded during the Gallipoli campaign. Perhaps they were asked and turned it down?

Not aware of any living Australian WW2 recipients, as per list here: List of living Victoria Cross recipients - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Groundhog]

Thank-you correction to original post made. More information on each winner can be found at Homepage - Australian Army

There is also a recipient from NZ that i missed from my original post.

 

[medhead]

However just because you didn't see or hear these points, doesn't mean it didn't happen - I trust Rick93's photo wasn't photoshopped and amaroo's hearing is pretty good.


What they all decided to do is there own decision. Mark Donaldson and Ben Roberts Smith chose to work for Channel 7 and I, for one, think that was a coup to have their experience on the day, on the ground. Daniel Keighran decided to stay in Australia and attended a number of functions (Canberra early morning service and later at the MCG to toss the coin for the AFL match amongst the ones where I saw him). Keith Payne decided to attend the Currumbin service. I respect their choices, no matter that it may not suit the Government.

No one in that photo is laying or sitting on a headstone.

I had a good chat with a couple of blokes while waiting to get into Lone Pine who had talked to Mark Donelson at Ari Burnu cemetery on the night of the 24th, photos and all with him. Their second hand account was that he/they were not invited. I infer that they made their choices at that starting point, not the other way around.

 

[Rick93]

Regarding the Istanbul IC ...

We had a good experience there. Had a Club access room for a few days.

After getting back from a 'city tour', we shared a cab with other Australians staying at a nearby hotel ( a much lower status one ).

They had never been in a hotel 'club lounge', so I took a risk of inviting them up for twilight drinks / canapes ( at my own personal cost, IF the hotel refused to allow the four of us into the lounge at that time ... )

Four of us arrived at the Club Lounge, and were greeted and welcomed very warmly.

The four of us stayed to the end of the comp. drinks / food, and our 'new friends' were greatly impressed and thankful for a great evening of conversation, drinks, and some nice nibblies ...

So, on this occasion at the IC Istanbul, they allowed 'guests of guests' to attend the Club Lounge free of charge ...

How many other ICs allow this ?? ( not too many, I would think ... )


*** At the IC Paris Le Grand at present ...

 

[Katie]

Did you guys still in Australia see anything on the TV about the 'behaviour' of Australians at the Lone Pine Service ????

The photo tells the story. I shouldn't need to say anymore .....View attachment 47336

Exactly the same comments were made 10yrs ago.

Where else should people sit?

I've had a picnic in Somme cemetery and played games with my then 18mth old daughter throughout various Somme cemeteries. I prefer to think of it like cemeteries in New Orleans - you go there to visit and pay respects, but that includes eating meals, etc, by your dead family members' graves.

 

[Rick93]

Katie, War Cemeteries are different.

There are 'rules' that aren't necessarily required in 'non-war' cemeteries.

I don't why people want to reject that for. You can't just wander into a military base, and claim it's your right to lay out a picnic blanket on the Parade Ground !!

It would seem, that our Australian culture ( taken as from 1901 onward ) is further deteriorating ...

What was once highly respected, is either trashed or heading that way ...

Eg. Respect for Queen / King & Country. Respect for politicians and government officials. Respect for traditions related to military and religious beliefs.

Take THE HAT for example ....

Both men and women once wore hats ( headdress, whatever name ... ), virtually everywhere. Men removed their hats at certain times of the day, such as when you entered buildings, when you met certain people, and on occasions like entering a War Cemetery, or when a funeral procession passed by etc. etc. Women had a modified set of rules for the wearing of their hats.

People just don't pay these respects anymore ....

.... and thus, we see this ongoing deterioration in the standards we once had, both as individuals, and as a community and state.



"where should people sit ?"
There was THEIR OWN seat in the stands. There were places outside the actual War Graves site - where the toilets / support tents etc. were. There was space near where the buses were to arrive / depart. There were OTHER places to go. It was not NECESSARY to lay on the commemorative sites attributed to a 'fallen digger'. ( yes, the whole site is one massive grave etc. etc. but where a stone is named to an individual - THAT space must be respected as if it WERE his actual resting place. )

 

[Groundhog]

I agree with you Rick. For my part it was disappointing to see people sleeping over graves. I personally saw this at Beach Cemetary, Schrapnel Valley and Lone Pine. I realise people were very tired (me too) however most people didnt exhibit this behaviour and seemed to hold the same sentiments as you. I for one however was determined not to let my disappointment of others get in the way of my enjoyment of the event. I remain awestruct by the courage and acheivements of the diggers and i am hugely impressed by the work that the CWGC has done in keeping their final resting place so beautiful.

 

[Flying mermaid]

It would seem, that our Australian culture ( taken as from 1901 onward ) is further deteriorating ...

What was once highly respected, is either trashed or heading that way ...

Eg. Respect for Queen / King & Country. Respect for politicians and government officials. Respect for traditions related to military and religious beliefs.

Take THE HAT for example ....

Both men and women once wore hats ( headdress, whatever name ... ), virtually everywhere. Men removed their hats at certain times of the day, such as when you entered buildings, when you met certain people, and on occasions like entering a War Cemetery, or when a funeral procession passed by etc. etc. Women had a modified set of rules for the wearing of their hats.

People just don't pay these respects anymore ....

I would agree with some of these sentiments - I don't believe n respect for respect's sake. The hat thing was just a cultural example from its time. I think where manners stemmed from consideration for other people it is a shame to see it go. How rare it is to see someone give up their seat on a bus for an elderly person, or respect their place in a queue.

However I do wonder what the Diggers would think of all this sanctification. Most of what I have read about them has them as a larrikin bunch with very little respect for symbols of authority.

 

[Pushka]

My Grandfather on his return from WW1 did not have a great opinion of Veteran's Affairs. He was due for medals but he was told he had to apply for them. He figured if he had to apply for them then they weren't worth having. He didn't stand on ceremony either. His pride and joy was his first grandson (my brother). He would not have minded the people resting there.

 

[medhead]

Katie, War Cemeteries are different.

There are 'rules' that aren't necessarily required in 'non-war' cemeteries.

I don't why people want to reject that for. You can't just wander into a military base, and claim it's your right to lay out a picnic blanket on the Parade Ground !!

It would seem, that our Australian culture ( taken as from 1901 onward ) is further deteriorating ...

What was once highly respected, is either trashed or heading that way ...

Eg. Respect for Queen / King & Country. Respect for politicians and government officials. Respect for traditions related to military and religious beliefs.

Take THE HAT for example ....

Both men and women once wore hats ( headdress, whatever name ... ), virtually everywhere. Men removed their hats at certain times of the day, such as when you entered buildings, when you met certain people, and on occasions like entering a War Cemetery, or when a funeral procession passed by etc. etc. Women had a modified set of rules for the wearing of their hats.

People just don't pay these respects anymore ....

.... and thus, we see this ongoing deterioration in the standards we once had, both as individuals, and as a community and state.



"where should people sit ?"
There was THEIR OWN seat in the stands. There were places outside the actual War Graves site - where the toilets / support tents etc. were. There was space near where the buses were to arrive / depart. There were OTHER places to go. It was not NECESSARY to lay on the commemorative sites attributed to a 'fallen digger'. ( yes, the whole site is one massive grave etc. etc. but where a stone is named to an individual - THAT space must be respected as if it WERE his actual resting place. )

Yet you happily stood around on the cemetery and didn't go to any of those other places. Why didn't you sit in the stands? Or perhaps you did go and sit next to the toilets? People didn't sit in the stands, including yourself. The simple fact is that there was no space to accommodate 8000 people outside of the cemetery area. There was not space for 8000 people next to the dunnies. It is also ludicrous to suggest clogging up the waiting areas for buses and walkways to the food vendors and toilets with 8000 people. Let's block the egress pathways - brilliant. None of the alternatives you've suggested are viable, besides the stands. But even you don't appear to have seen the need to sit in the stands.

Now if you grab 8000 people, stick them on a parade ground and give them nowhere else to go, just see what happens. Notwithstanding that it's a false analogy anyway. Most people can't just wander into a base and a rocky, hot parade ground in the last place you'd have a picnic.