A discussion on the ethics and legality of scripting 1 cent transactions!

[Cephalopod]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Ethics is very subjective.

I'm of the view that because we're not doing anything to circumvent a measure put in place by BW or Telstra then it's not unethical.

The person who was going from coles to coles and doing over 2000 offline transactions a day I consider unethical as he was intentionally circumventing restrictions in place to prevent that precise behaviour.

The cost to the company, bank or processor is irrelevant to me. As a consumer it is transparent to me and I simply do not care. Just like how if I book an airline and get hit with a credit card surchage that is often considered excessive I do not care. In that case I am told to pay a fee. I do. In this case I am not required to pay a fee. I don't.

I can't see any logical argument where it can be considered unethical for me to be concerned about whether I am costing a business whose primary goal is turning a profit money, or whether I am making them money. As a consumer that's not my job.

 

[cxthomps]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Interesting topic, been away nearly a week and 15 pages of this springs up.

Having read the whole thing, I am of the opinion (completely not a lawyer or anything remotely useful to determine this opinion) this is NOT fraud, but I can see the bank claiming abuse and I wouldn't fight hard if they closed my account with such a justification. I would fight harder on a claw back with Qantas tho, depends on how hard they try to claw back. What banks will try and what they get away with is another thing entirely.

 

[Cephalopod]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Fighting closure of account would be pointless. You'd lose. If they close mine then I'll just accept it.

This clause was bought up in the main thread a while ago:
"transactions we decide are disputed due to being fraudulentor which involve an abuse of your Account;"

People are misinterpreting it. The clause exists to say that if your card or account is used fraudulently then you do not receive points on them as you are disputing the transactions.

You need to read it very carefully, transactions we decide are disputed due to being fraudulent (you can't use your own account fraudulently) or an abuse of your account. This is bank speak for fraud or someone using your account without your express permission but that otherwise would not be considered fraud.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

One of my previous businesses had a virtual currency and we found people trying to scheme things all the time.
Every few months someone would find a loophole, exploit it - we would close it and the cat and mouse game continued.

There are ways to mitigate the exposure once members exploit it - but what they're doing isn't fraud... It's ingenuity at it's finest! We ended up giving them all their points and MORE if they would join our 'panel of experts' whose job it was to find loopholes. As a bank, I would want people like this on my side, not off trying to find the next scam to screw me on.

 

[Deleted member]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I fail to see any deception. Hypothetically, I'm a person paying a bill in my name with a card, or cards, in my name. If we look at the case of multiple cards per account, BW were happy to issue those cards to the person who is the owner of the account. But I can see something about lying to obtain multiple cards.

criminality or wrongfulness in me paying my bills with my card is pretty hard to see. Again the person is being entirely open in who they are and what they are doing.

It is pretty hard to see the point about manipulating a website. The macro is using the website exactly as it is designed to be used, it just automates the data input and key/mouse responses. If getting program to enter 1234... into a box on a website is manipulation then does it follow that me typing that same text into that same box is also website manipulation. Lets compare to a real world example of mowing the lawn, should I be out there with a scythe instead of a motorised grass cutting machine?

Finally, the personal gain side of it. BW are offering an inducement to get people to use their product. If we take the view that accepting that inducement is wrongful personal gain then all loyalty programs need to be shut down immediately.

Let's take this idea of fraud and ponder the question of buying a coffee. I buy 1 coffee, I get 5 points. What if I buy 50 coffees a day, is that fraud now? What if I make 50x $4 or $3 or $2 or $1 payments to telstra a day, is that fraud. I totally get the point about the cost to BW. But the fact that they might have realised a problem with the product they have offered does not make the people using their product criminals.

Not a good analogy IMHO. Let's say you buy Cornflakes. You could buy the. Oh, or buy each individual corn flake in a separate transaction. That is a more accurate comparison I would think.

 

[Deleted member]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

well the coffee isn't the perfect analogy, granted. But they are not buying 1 product in 50 transactions. My phone bill includes 100s of items. my electricity bill is also for multiple items (I might like to pay per electron ).

What is lacking is deception, surely that is a required element.

What manipulation? The websites are being used precisely as designed - enter information, make a payment of the customer desired amount. The biller lets you pay in increments. It is pretty hard to see manipulation in someone using the provided capability.

What abuse of product? I see a failure in designing the product. That's an issue entirely for the people who made the product. They can't blame someone else for their failures.

When you put it like that, it reminds me of when you paid for each phone call with cash. Since mobile phones have been on then scene , we don't see pay phones anymore.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Not a good analogy IMHO. Let's say you buy Cornflakes. You could buy the. Oh, or buy each individual corn flake in a separate transaction. That is a more accurate comparison I would think.

No cornflakes is not a good comparison. The reason being that cornflakes cannot be bought individually, it's sold per pack weight. Phone calls can be ought individually. The smallest phone bill I ever received was for 20c and was from Optus. It was apparently for a call to the UK which I did not make, but that is beside the point. Phone calls are billed per each not per pack weight.

 

[Isochronous]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

The suggestion that the use of 1c transactions to earn points from the Bankwest QF Transaction A/C is preposterous.

Fraud is where an innocent party suffers damage as a consequence of relying on a dishonest representation by the fraudster.

I see neither dishonesty nor damage in this scenario.

 

[JohnK]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

One of my previous businesses had a virtual currency and we found people trying to scheme things all the time.
Every few months someone would find a loophole, exploit it - we would close it and the cat and mouse game continued.

Like where staff refer one another to get $50 referral bonus on an insurance policy? Some people will try anything on but common sense knocked these "smart" ones down quickly.

Oh and they complained....

 

[docjames]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Interesting thread.

Interesting also the thread title has bankwest removed. I wonder why? :idea:

 

[burmans]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Interesting thread.

Interesting also the thread title has bankwest removed. I wonder why? :idea:

Well presumably because if its unethical to make 1c transactions it's unethical no matter who the bank is?

 

[docjames]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Well presumably because if its unethical to make 1c transactions it's unethical no matter who the bank is?

I was implying it was perhaps because they didn't want to alert bankwest (akin to high SC / low $ "mileage runs" or "mistake fares" that aren't published in case they get "cancelled").

This method is only to "game" bankwest. I'm happy to be be involved in the ethical discussion, but I note the in-thread titles still have bankwest but the main title doesn't.

One can speculate why it was changed.

 

[burmans]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I was being ironic, sorry this does not translate!.

Yes, I'm not really sure why changed but if it was to ensure Bankwest weren't alerted then I'm sorry, but that horse has well and truly bolted. BW were well and truly aware of this a year ago, I see no reason why they would have "forgotten".

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I was being ironic,

That may be so, but I'd guess you're on the mark. It's no longer a discussion about BW per se, more the method used, which others have pointed out can be used with many accounts although not to the same effect. If I recall correctly, Telstra as an example, charges a $5 transaction fee when paying with a credit card rather than a savings card.......I'm not too sure if there would be many takers for the 1c transaction under those terms!

 

[burmans]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

That may be so, but I'd guess you're on the mark.

What can I say, irony usually works best when there is an element of truth to it!

 

[Cephalopod]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

That may be so, but I'd guess you're on the mark. It's no longer a discussion about BW per se, more the method used, which others have pointed out can be used with many accounts although not to the same effect. If I recall correctly, Telstra as an example, charges a $5 transaction fee when paying with a credit card rather than a savings card.......I'm not too sure if there would be many takers for the 1c transaction under those terms!

Telstra charge a % fee.

But not when paying in 1c payments.

 

[JohnK]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

Interesting thread.

Interesting also the thread title has bankwest removed. I wonder why? :idea:

To protect those gaming the system?

Not sure why this discussion was removed from the main thread? To leave more important discussions on how to spread scripts around to the masses?

And if anyone is interested Sydney Water has a $1 minimum payment.

 

[ETA_2022]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

...

And if anyone is interested Sydney Water has a $1 minimum payment.

Interesting. So does Yarra Valley Water (in Melbourne).

 

[moa999]

Quite probably because they get charged a per transaction fee (eg. I think eftpos is commonly 20c)

 

[sumthinfornuthin]

Re: Bankwest Transaction account [General Discussion]

I think I have missed what is going on and have read the whole thread
I guess they are paying points per transaction ??
Can someone point me to a link I can read on this
No idea of the substance but personally I would be cautious on ME doing 1 cent transaction but $ 10 or $20 transactions MAYBE.
Thanks in anticipation