Air Marshalls stealing your F seats? Airlines seem to think so

[pauly7]

Surely this should be a tax on tickets rather than taxpayers?

Right.... So the air marshals on board only duty is to protect the people actually on the plane as ticket holders?!?

Have a think about 9/11 for a second that should help you answer your own question.

 

[pauly7]

Agreed. I just can't imagine what sort of "persuasion" could compel a pilot to open that door.

Then your imagination is limited! (and this is probably a good thing!)

How about, 'we have your partner and three kids...'

Pilots are human.

 

[samh004]

Right.... So the air marshals on board only duty is to protect the people actually on the plane as ticket holders?!?

Have a think about 9/11 for a second that should help you answer your own question.

What’s with the attitude to everyone (and me) today?

Just because some terrorists flew a few planes into buildings doesn’t mean that’s always just their goal, there are many reasons for hijacking planes, and generally they’re only affecting the people on the planes, not everyone else.

Don’t let one event fool the issue.

Then your imagination is limited! (and this is probably a good thing!)

How about, 'we have your partner and three kids...'

Pilots are human.

And families regularly travel on the same a/c the pilots fly? I thought they’re usually on standby.

Also, lets see, on one side of the door they kill your family, on the other side they kill EVERYONE. It’s compelling to open the door yes, but realistically, the pilot and everyone else would then also die. Not a very good idea. And how does the terrorist even know who the pilots family is?

 

[Flashback]

What’s with the attitude to everyone (and me) today?

Just because some terrorists flew a few planes into buildings doesn’t mean that’s always just their goal, there are many reasons for hijacking planes, and generally they’re only affecting the people on the planes, not everyone else.

Don’t let one event fool the issue.




And families regularly travel on the same a/c the pilots fly? I thought they’re usually on standby.

Also, lets see, on one side of the door they kill your family, on the other side they kill EVERYONE. It’s compelling to open the door yes, but realistically, the pilot and everyone else would then also die. Not a very good idea. And how does the terrorist even know who the pilots family is?

That was exactly my thoughts too. I'd rather sacrifice a few at the expense of saving others.

 

[oz_mark]

Just because some terrorists flew a few planes into buildings doesn’t mean that’s always just their goal, there are many reasons for hijacking planes, and generally they’re only affecting the people on the planes, not everyone else.

Don’t let one event fool the issue.

The thing is that air marshalls were a response to that event, not to hijacking generally.

 

[hollydavid69]

That's not bad work if you can get it , flying around the world all day in First Class, on the off chance that there's a terrorist attack.

 

[samh004]

That's not bad work if you can get it , flying around the world all day in First Class, on the off chance that there's a terrorist attack.

I’m guessing they don’t accumulate status though which is unfortunate as it could come in handy when not on duty

 

[SeaWolf]

I'd be curious to know how cost effective Air Marshalls actually are. In Australia's case, how much bang are we getting for our $55 million bucks? Could we get more bang if we spent the $55 million some place else, perhaps on something a little more practical?

I get that Air Marshalls are at the 'glamorous' end of the security pantomime though and help to sell the rest of the show, so they're unlikely to be going anywhere.

 

[NYCguy]

... Families regularly travel on the same a/c the pilots fly?

Also, lets see, on one side of the door they kill your family, on the other side they kill EVERYONE. It’s compelling to open the door yes, but realistically, the pilot and everyone else would then also die. Not a very good idea.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[pauly7]

What’s with the attitude to everyone (and me) today?

Calm down, no 'attitude' with you, for my part I was just pointing out a large flaw in your argument This is a discussion board. I'm sorry if you felt that way!

And families regularly travel on the same a/c the pilots fly? I thought they’re usually on standby.

At what point did I say the family was on the plane...? I'm just saying that there are multiple points of leverage that an offender may use.

Also, lets see, on one side of the door they kill your family, on the other side they kill EVERYONE. It’s compelling to open the door yes, but realistically, the pilot and everyone else would then also die. Not a very good idea.

Of course this is correct but you are missing the point. You are dealing with humans and everyone has a week spot. You are assuming that in the heat of the moment that everything goes 'by the book' with perfect judgment and full knowledge of the situation. I'm sorry but in disasters it almost never occurs in this way, I have helped test DR hypotheticals and it's the first thing they teach you. Hindsight of course has perfect vision.....

And how does the terrorist even know who the pilots family is?

LOL. Not laughing at you btw!! - but funny comment. I actually feel uncomfortable taking this further, feel like people will think I'm up to no good!! So I'll just say when there is a will there is a way, always. This information is not impossible to obtain.

 

[medhead]

Just because some terrorists flew a few planes into buildings doesn’t mean that’s always just their goal, there are many reasons for hijacking planes, and generally they’re only affecting the people on the planes, not everyone else.

Don’t let one event fool the issue.

The thing is that one event does fool the issue. That one event will determine the response to future events regardless of the motivation of the hijackers. I wouldn't expect any pax to sit there and say "oh their buddhist free tibet hijackers they won't hurt us". I would also expect the USA to shoot first and ask questions later. Because of my expectations about the response to a future event IMO hijacking is no longer viable, due to one event.

 

[blueflamenco]

The thing is that air marshalls were a response to that event, not to hijacking generally.

Well air marshals have been around since the 60's. They didn't just start up after 9/11 although the program changed around this time and has gone through many changes since its beginnings.

 

[Flashback]

Well air marshals have been around since the 60's. They didn't just start up after 9/11 although the program changed around this time and has gone through many changes since its beginnings.

I'd say probably the main one being that since 9/11 the frequency has increased.

 

[blueflamenco]

Right.... So the air marshals on board only duty is to protect the people actually on the plane as ticket holders?!?

Have a think about 9/11 for a second that should help you answer your own question.

Thinking about it just raises more and more questions rather than answers them. In my opinion.

 

[jakeseven7]

What’s with the attitude to everyone (and me) today?

Just because some terrorists flew a few planes into buildings doesn’t mean that’s always just their goal, there are many reasons for hijacking planes, and generally they’re only affecting the people on the planes, not everyone else.

Don’t let one event fool the issue.




And families regularly travel on the same a/c the pilots fly? I thought they’re usually on standby.

Also, lets see, on one side of the door they kill your family, on the other side they kill EVERYONE. It’s compelling to open the door yes, but realistically, the pilot and everyone else would then also die. Not a very good idea. And how does the terrorist even know who the pilots family is?

This is just a forum, don't take things so personally How on earth did you survive when Dave Noble was around

I think pauly7 has clearly pointed out that there was a hole in your statement thats all.

Don't disagree with the opening door / everyone dies comment but you are posting this from your comfy couch @ home most probably (as am I), who knows what would happen in peoples minds 35,000 feet up!!

I could write a hollywood script about how potential terrorists could on the ground leverage some sort of ransom situation - they wouldn't have to be on the plane with the family at all.

Keep an open mind mate, everyone is just discussing here.

 

[blueflamenco]

I'd say probably the main one being that since 9/11 the frequency has increased.

Dramatically.

 

[jakeseven7]

The thing is that one event does fool the issue. That one event will determine the response to future events regardless of the motivation of the hijackers. .

+1 Good Post

Agree - it has and usually will. If it should - thats another question.

 

[harvyk]

The question would be "what class of travel are the terrorists likely to choose"? The answer would probably be any and every class.

Well they used to favour J and F classes, but not for the comfort...

J and F classes typically have a smaller number of pax sitting in them, and are often have something (such as curtain \ bulkhead) between them and Y class, in fact with the B747 you've got a set of stairs separating J from the rest.

This is advantageous to the terrorist as it's a smaller number of people they need to control during the early stages of an attack, and the bulk of the pax remain unaware of what's going on until it's too late to do anything.

This is the reason the curtain was removed from most flights, as it removed the privacy which a would be terrorist would have in J \ F.

Of course as always there are exceptions to this rule.

So the very things which make J \ F desirable (eg the added privacy which you don't get in Y) for the average pax, make it far more attractive for the would be terrorists, and thus make it a logical choice for the air marshalls.

 

[Happy Trails]

With, apparently, fewer than 100 marshals available and currently more than 1 million flights per year, perhaps an AFF statistician can work out the chances of a marshall actually being on any given flight.
Lots of variables of course.

 

[harvyk]

Whilst there are loads of variables, assuming it was a ratio of 1 flight = 1 air marshall, and that air marshals never sleep, and that there are even number of flights per day (so everything giving maximum chances of an airmarshall being on any one flight) you're looking at a no better than 3.65% chance of an air marshall being on any one of your flights.

So you may get an airmarshall once in every 30 flights.

Of course given air marshalls don't work 24 / 7, and a flight may have multiple air marshalls, and flights are of different length in time, and certain routes may be considered higher risk than others, the actual odds are probably closer to 1 flight in 200.