Airlines eye new slots at Haneda (Tokyo)

[dajop]

You forgot number 4 from the AFF bible-more SCs,TPs or whatever you are collecting.

Isn’t the oft quoted saying around here ... “why fly direct when you can connect”?

 

[desafinado74]

Virgin Australia to make its case for Tokyo Haneda slot - Australian Aviation

Virgin Australia says it is seeking one of the two new slots available to Australian carriers for Tokyo Haneda airport to launch nonstop flights to Japan.

australianaviation.com.au

 

[pauly7]

Isn’t the oft quoted saying around here ... “why fly direct when you can connect”?

I sin often as a loyal AFF member I’m afraid. I always go the shortest most direct route.

But anyway back on topic. I wonder if QF would ever consider a lounge in Tokyo....

 

[jase05]

If VA had to give up one of its HKG routes which one do people think it would be?
Is any route more profitable than the other?
Have still yet to visit Japan but happy that there is the possibility of more options and a VA service would definitely attract my attention. Obviously a lot of groundwork required and maybe some form of partnership with NH would work especially for code shares, lounges etc

 

[drron]

I sin often as a loyal AFF member I’m afraid. I always go the shortest most direct route.

But anyway back on topic. I wonder if QF would ever consider a lounge in Tokyo....

There is a QF lounge in NRT at the satellite terminal near Gate 82 I think.
But will they get a lounge at HND.

 

[Isochronous]

Could VA drop their frequency to HKG?
Say SYD-HKG 4 times per week and MEL-HKG 3 times per week, that would free up an aircraft.
Only throwing ideas out there and don’t know if it’s feasable or not but then with the 1 free aircraft would it be possible to split it between cities ie SYD-HND 4 times per week, MEL-HND the other 3 days. A partnership with NH would be good also IMO

That would destroy its standing in both markets - VA would be better off being daily from one and not bothering with the other.

If VA had to give up one of its HKG routes which one do people think it would be?
Is any route more profitable than the other?
Have still yet to visit Japan but happy that there is the possibility of more options and a VA service would definitely attract my attention. Obviously a lot of groundwork required and maybe some form of partnership with NH would work especially for code shares, lounges etc

I reckon it would give up SYD for the following reasons:

1) More competition on SYD - 4xCX and 2xQF
2) It launched MEL before it launched SYD
3) MEL seems to have fuller planes on this route.

 

[getluv]

VA first announced their intention to fly Australia-HKG on 17 February 2017.

Virgin Australia Announces Flights to Hong Kong and Landmark Alliance Agreement With HNA Aviation, Hong Kong Airlines And HK Express | Virgin Australia

VA received interim approval from the ACCC on 20 March 2017.

Virgin Australia welcomes ACCC interim approval of proposed alliance with HNA Aviation, Hong Kong Airlines and HK Express | Virgin Australia

VA announced that they would launch MEL-HKG flights on 21 March 2017.

Virgin Australia announces flights from Melbourne to Hong Kong | Virgin Australia

VA operated their first MEL-HKG service on 05 July 2017.

Sir Richard Branson launches Virgin Australia's first flight to Hong Kong | Virgin Australia

VA were able to launch an international service to a city they did not serve previously in less than five months (from intention to serve to operating). It could be argued that it was actually less than four months in reality (from interim approval to operating).

If an Australia-HND slot is awarded to VA on 31 October 2019 as currently scheduled, there would be just less than five months to launch the new service in late March 2020 (any Japanese regulatory requirements excluded).

VA have been able to launch a brand new service to a city they have not served previously within the timeframe provided (see the timeline and links above), so they should be able to do it again (once again, any Japanese regulatory requirements excluded).

If Japanese regulatory requirements require a small delay to the commencement of the new route, do you entrench an effective monopoly/oligopoly for years to come for the sake of a month or two of operation of an expansion route...

- VA and NH have no relationship outside a normal interline agreement. NH also has an interline agreement with QF.
- A proposed JV between NH and VA would take months to plan and get approvals for, then execute. I’m not even sure if either country is even allowed to codeshare on each other’s services to HND as it is not explicitly stated in the Air Services Agreement. Also any rise to a NH/VA closer relationship would let QF/JL get closer which is not in NH’s interest either.
- While VA were able to commence HKG quickly, they also had HNA providing feed. Even then, the service has been severely loss making, with load factors continuously below 70%, whereas QF/CX are well above 80%. Given VA financial situation, do they want another loss making route for VAI. I understand the strategic importance, but they could always lobby for the slots in future.
- Even if QF was awarded both slots, it is actually not a monopoly. They have to compete with both JL and NH to HND. QF also would have flights to NRT, KIX, CTS and the JQ flights to fill, and VA are welcome to operate flights to NRT or anywhere else in Japan.
- VA can’t be given a placeholder to start flights. They actually have to start flights in late March 2019, in a market where they have no presence in or regulatory approvals to operate. How bad would the Australian government look if VA were awarded the rights but couldn’t operate them.

I honestly think this is an uphill battle for them despite the benefits they would bring in the form of extra competition. Either way, VA would have to pull out an a330 from domestic or HKG, markets where QF are going to benefit, and will benefit more if VA bleeds another $5-10M.

 

[Pleb Status]

- VA and NH have no relationship outside a normal interline agreement. NH also has an interline agreement with QF.
- A proposed JV between NH and VA would take months to plan and get approvals for, then execute. I’m not even sure if either country is even allowed to codeshare on each other’s services to HND as it is not explicitly stated in the Air Services Agreement. Also any rise to a NH/VA closer relationship would let QF/JL get closer which is not in NH’s interest either.
- While VA were able to commence HKG quickly, they also had HNA providing feed. Even then, the service has been severely loss making, with load factors continuously below 70%, whereas QF/CX are well above 80%. Given VA financial situation, do they want another loss making route for VAI. I understand the strategic importance, but they could always lobby for the slots in future.
- Even if QF was awarded both slots, it is actually not a monopoly. They have to compete with both JL and NH to HND. QF also would have flights to NRT, KIX, CTS and the JQ flights to fill, and VA are welcome to operate flights to NRT or anywhere else in Japan.
- VA can’t be given a placeholder to start flights. They actually have to start flights in late March 2019, in a market where they have no presence in or regulatory approvals to operate. How bad would the Australian government look if VA were awarded the rights but couldn’t operate them.

I honestly think this is an uphill battle for them despite the benefits they would bring in the form of extra competition. Either way, VA would have to pull out an a330 from domestic or HKG, markets where QF are going to benefit, and will benefit more if VA bleeds another $5-10M.

If QF just swap one flight from NRT to HND as currently proposed, that change will not generate one additional seat between Australia and Japan (as long as the aircraft remains the same). So awarding the slot to QF will be similar to not awarding the slot to anyone at all....

 

[getluv]

If QF just swap one flight from NRT to HND as currently proposed, that change will not generate one additional seat between Australia and Japan (as long as the aircraft remains the same). So awarding the slot to QF will be similar to not awarding the slot to anyone at all....

Err. Qantas have said they would be commencing double daily ops out of SYD. So there would be a net increase.

 

[Pleb Status]

Err. Qantas have said they would be commencing double daily ops out of SYD. So there would be a net increase.

Err. They propose to launch the second SYD-HND flight with the slot that VA are not competing for.

There will be more seats from Australia to Japan if one slot is awarded to QF and one to VA, as there would be two new flights a day.

So to clarify, awarding both slots to QF will be similar to not awarding one slot to anyone at all....

 

[getluv]

Err. They will launch that SYD-HND flight with the second slot that VA are not competing for.

There will be more seats from Australia to Japan if one slot is awarded to QF and one to VA as there will be two new flights a day...

The argument QF is making is that VA will not have the approvals in place to fly to HND form 29 March 2019 and there is nothing stopping VA from commencing flights to Narita, and either way there will be more seats to Japan.

 

[Himeno]

There is a QF lounge in NRT at the satellite terminal near Gate 82 I think.
But will they get a lounge at HND.

There is not a lot of space at HND T3 (International) for more lounges. CX has 1, JL has 2. NH has 2 and there are some airport operated lounges (some pay in, some airline contracted).

 

[Pleb Status]

The argument QF is making is that VA will not have the approvals in place to fly to HND form 29 March 2019 and there is nothing stopping VA from commencing flights to Narita, and either way there will be more seats to Japan.

Of course QF are making an 'argument' (of sorts) to keep the most valuable slots to themselves. They can see big $$$$ and want to keep as much of that to themselves. According to the link below, 'The slots will be available to be taken up from March 29 2020.'. This does not say they must be operated from that date. The real deadline for the slots is for the Olympics which start in late July 2020.

Japan allocates four new slots for Australia-Tokyo Haneda flights

Australian and Japanese airlines have been awarded four new slot pairs nonstop flights between Australia and Tokyo Haneda Airport.

australianaviation.com.au

Also, If NRT is so great and profitable, why do QF want to move their existing MEL service to HND? Why not start another SYD-NRT service and not bid for the HND slots at all?

So to repeat, awarding both slots to QF will be similar to not awarding one slot to anyone at all....

 

[dajop]

- VA and NH have no relationship outside a normal interline agreement. NH also has an interline agreement with QF.
- A proposed JV between NH and VA would take months to plan and get approvals for, then execute.

In theory an alliance could be set up quicker than a JV, with our without codesharing. Codeshares actually seem the easiest to set up - if permitted - then alliance, then JV. However, in practice VA do not have a good track record in bringing new alliances with specific airlines to the table, eg SA which took ages and AC which was announced but never materialised (was that due to DL JV?).

 

[Pleb Status]

It is interesting to note that if you search on the NH website for a flight from HND to say BNE, MEL and ADL (and every other pair I tried), the options are all NH to SYD and then VA onwards.

So some 'loose' cooperation may already exist between the two airlines...



The connection to ADL is particularly poor on the random day I selected so the connecting flights are not just the first available.

 

[getluv]

Of course QF are making an 'argument' (of sorts) to keep the most valuable slots to themselves. They can see big $$$$ and want to keep as much of that to themselves. According to the link below, 'The slots will be available to be taken up from March 29 2020.'. This does not say they must be operated from that date. The real deadline for the slots is for the Olympics which start in late July 2020.

Japan allocates four new slots for Australia-Tokyo Haneda flights

Australian and Japanese airlines have been awarded four new slot pairs nonstop flights between Australia and Tokyo Haneda Airport.

australianaviation.com.au

Also, If NRT is so great and profitable, why do QF want to move their existing MEL service to HND? Why not start another SYD-NRT service and not bid for the HND slots at all?

So to repeat, awarding both slots to QF will be similar to not awarding one slot to anyone at all....

If you read the bilateral agreement, the QF application and the article you reference you will see that the slots have to be taken up by 29 March. Not "for the Olympics."

They will want more HND slots because they have a presence there and it will make operations more flexible. The other slot they have is an evening time (2200-0600hrs) slot.

 

[johnnyfive]

Yep they do have some sort of agreement with NH.

Other Partners - airline partners | Virgin Australia

www.virginaustralia.com

 

[getluv]

It is interesting to note that if you search on the NH website for a flight from HND to say BNE, MEL and ADL (and every other pair I tried), the options are all NH to SYD and then VA onwards.

So some 'loose' cooperation may already exist between the two airlines...

View attachment 188520View attachment 188521View attachment 188522

The connection to ADL is particularly poor on the random day I selected so the connecting flights are not just the first available.

If my memory serves me correctly, if you are connecting to the NH flight from a VA domestic flight (on the same ticket) you still have to collect your bags at T2 and self connect to T1. This happens with a lot of other airlines VA interline with.

 

[Pleb Status]

If you read the bilateral agreement, the QF application and the article you reference you will see that the slots have to be taken up by 29 March. Not "for the Olympics."

Where does it say that in the article that I referenced? An exact quotation would be good. If another document is going to be used as a reference for your statement above, a link to that document is also required.

The only reference to a commencement date in my reference is contained in the sentence, 'The slots will be available to be taken up from March 29 2020.'. This only states that the slots will be available for use from 29 March 2020, not that they MUST be used from that date.

The IASC announcement below states 'The new arrangements will take effect from 29 March 2020. In order for Australian airlines to be awarded slots to operate to Haneda Airport for the 2020 Northern Summer IATA scheduling period, the Commission is working towards allocating these capacity entitlements by 31 October 2019. '. Once again, it does not state that the use of the new slots MUST commence on 29 March 2020 and not a single day later under any circumstances. As long as VA is assigned the slots and timings for arrivals and departures are agreed for IATA scheduling purposes, the actual service could start a month or two later.

Link -

https://www.iasc.gov.au/applications/files/20190903_IASC_announcement.pdf

The reference to the Olympics is from the article linked below. I have seen similar wording in many other articles.

'As part of a growth plan with an eye on the 2020 Olympics, the Japanese Government is adding 50 additional 'daily slot pairings' – take-off and landing spots – at Tokyo's Haneda Airport, which is it also encouraging as a hub for premium airlines.'

Link -

Qantas shakes up Tokyo flights

Qantas is shifting its focus from Tokyo’s Narita airport in favour of Haneda.

www.executivetraveller.com

Also, do not bother referencing the QF application as that is obviously skewed towards the QF 'point of view' and therefore irrelevant...

 

[getluv]

Err. HND is slot restricted. “Taken up” = “being used”. The fact that it is 29 March, the start of NS where slots changes occur is a dead giveaway. HND doesn’t use placeholders. Australian registered airlines receive two daytime slots from 29 March 2020 because that what was negotiated with the Japanese government.

Why do you think the IASC is expediting the decision and review process.

Of course the QF application is skewed but is consistent with the requirements being set out which is why they are banging on about “another Australian carrier” not having the regulatory requirements to meet the deadline.

Honestly, leave your bias at the door and read/consider the purpose of why the HND is such a special airport and has many restrictions placed on it.

No one is disputing that the timing of these changes is due to the Olympics and the Japanese government wanting more tourists. However, the requirement is that the slots are taken up on 29 March 2020.

See below with United and Delta commencing their new HND flights that they applied for. Hint, the flights commence on 29 March ex-HND.

Delta's New Tokyo Haneda Flights Now On Sale

Delta is greatly expanding at Tokyo Haneda Airport. The airline has just put all of these new flights on sale, so here's what we can expect.

onemileatatime.com

United Airlines Reveals New Tokyo Haneda Routes

The Department of Transportation recently granted United several Tokyo Haneda slots, so here are the exact flights they plan to launch.

onemileatatime.com