Appalling service and care from Qantas

[cmon0005]

If QF won't sort it or offer appropriate compensation, would a CC charge back for the taxes/surcharges you paid be warranted?

 

[nlagalle]

If QF won't sort it or offer appropriate compensation, would a CC charge back for the taxes/surcharges you paid be warranted?

No because you'd be paying the taxes anyway.

To the OP, be clear in terms of what you want for compensation. IE partial points refund etc. if you don't spell it out it will get fobbed off

 

[bsb]

Is there somewhere on this forum where the abbreviations are described? For example what is a FIM and IRROPS?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Is there somewhere on this forum where the abbreviations are described? For example what is a FIM and IRROPS?

I think there's a glossary somewhere. FIM = Flight Interruption Manifest, IRROPS = IRRegular OPerationS

 

[muppet]

What is it with these clowns that work for airlines that think someone who booked and paid for a premium class of travel is happy to booted to economy?

I know the OP paid with points but surely premium customers should be looked after?

How hard is it to say: "Sorry, the flight is cancelled and we have no business class seats available. You can fly economy now or wait until tomorrow and fly business."

Even if they think they can get away with a downgrade and no compensation in x% of cases, shouldn't they be trying to maintain repeat business rather than destroy that customer relationship?

Flat-bed 747 to smallest seat pitch available on an A321 is an outrageous change.

 

[muppet]

No because you'd be paying the taxes anyway.

To the OP, be clear in terms of what you want for compensation. IE partial points refund etc. if you don't spell it out it will get fobbed off

Hardly any of it is tax, it's mostly carrier surcharges that are much higher for premium cabins so a partial refund in cash is definitely in order.

EDIT: SYD-JFK in J - Taxes and Charges $473
SYD-JFK in Y - $318

 

[RichardMEL]

Because its Qantas, or in general? The last time I had something go astray (business seat known to be not working properly on LATAM, a couple of months ago) I got a US$300 voucher there and then, at check-in.

Its entirely do-able when the issue is known in advance, such as the situation here ... I think its more a case of whether the airline actually wants to do anything and we know from the very many stories here on AFF, Qantas, in general, aren't inclined to do anything in the way of compensation for IRROPS unless really pushed.

A bung seat on an operating carrier (ie: LA) is much easier for the airline concerned to cough up compo etc.

This situation is quite different. It's not AA's fault QF cancelled, but it's a QF ticket and QF bears the responsibility. Furthermore QF's ground team at LAX perhaps don't have the authority to deal with such things (and their main focus on departurees and processing pax is in the evening not so much the morning where they only have one departure but multiple arrivals which may also be a slight factor).

The focus for the agents at the time of this cancel is to get pax to where they need to be as quickly as possible (the stuffup with the FIM, which should have been handled automatically before one landed incidently, aside).

It also is potentially a QF policy to refer back to customer care post flights.

Yes, QF does things like for dom delays of a certain length issue food vouchers and stuff (but it's also much easier in QF owned/leased terminals like MEL or SYD because they can, have agreements with retailers, etc)

something like this can't be worked out at a counter when the priority is to get people on their way IMHO so yes in this instance I think getting comp on the spot isn't that realistic. If it was me I'd want to get to NY and figure out the rest later

IMHO

 

[serfty]

Is there somewhere on this forum where the abbreviations are described? For example what is a FIM and IRROPS?

http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/showthread.php?p=60340

 

[RichardMEL]

What is it with these clowns that work for airlines that think someone who booked and paid for a premium class of travel is happy to booted to economy?

I know the OP paid with points but surely premium customers should be looked after?

How hard is it to say: "Sorry, the flight is cancelled and we have no business class seats available. You can fly economy now or wait until tomorrow and fly business."

Even if they think they can get away with a downgrade and no compensation in x% of cases, shouldn't they be trying to maintain repeat business rather than destroy that customer relationship?

Flat-bed 747 to smallest seat pitch available on an A321 is an outrageous change.

Agree but how do you know something like this wasn't offered? Not sure that detail was provided by the OP

I also believe the assumption would be reasonable that pax wants to get to destination sooner rather than later and if it was only Y avail it seems reasonable to put them on the next flight.

Now if QF post trip gives nothing back for the fare paid and invol downgrade that was their fault, that's a whole other matter.

I flew UA (yes them ) last year LAX-SFO-PDX.. missed the connection due to 45min in the penalty box at SFO.. UA put me in Y on the next flight 3 hours later (I was a YUPP type fare) as there was no F seats avail for like 6 hours. After the fact gave me $400. Sure it was only a 1 hour ish flight so Y was fine but it was sorted out. I got there in reasonable time and got (pretty good really) comp for it. Sure it's not the 5+ hours to JFK but same deal IMHO. just get there..

Also in my vew revenue or award doesn't matter that much in this instance - it was a paid ticket and QF caused the issue by cancelling the connection. makes no difference on payment method IMHO

 

[Strategic Aviation]

http://www.australianfrequentflyer.c...ad.php?p=60340

Surely FIM = Foot In Mouth

 

[Anna]

I don't know what an FIM is. I've never had to get one. I do know from personal experience that when QF downgrades you involuntarily on a points booking, you have to be very persistent to get any compensation or even to get the correct amount of points refunded. When it happened to me I had to do a lot of "ok, can I speak to your supervisor please" up the chain until I got someone who had enough authority to exercise common sense to resolve the issue.

 

[RAM]

In my experience, unless you ask, you don't always know what all your alternatives are. In other words, you are not always offered them. I've had to ask a few times now and have at times selected another alternative.

mikem42 - you are in luck that this happened in America. The key point is that you were never given anything in writing as required by US law (or at least you did not mention being given a page listing your rights).

That just happens to be the same place that Qantas, a serial offender, has been fined numerous times (and put on a sort of probation) for not informing passengers of their rights under US law which the US Department of Transportation looks after. The fines cover multiple non-disclosure of passenger rights by both Qantas ground and on-board staff. Virgin America was fined twice in 2012 for total of $155,000 in violations, as was Qantas, which paid total of $140,000. You did not recieve the product you paid for (does not matter how you paid for it - just that the airline did not provide the exact service paid for AND did not inform you of your rights under US law)

Qantas seems to be the most frequently fined foreign airline by the US DoT btw.

This article provides a good summary of your rights:

U.S. Department of Transportation fines four airlines

Under DOT rules, passengers are eligible for compensation when they are involuntarily bumped from an oversold flight, the amount of which varies based on several factors including the planned arrival time of the substitute transportation arranged (or offered to be arranged). Air carriers must immediately provide passengers who are involuntarily bumped from a flight with a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation, and describing the carriers’ boarding priority rules and criteria. Carriers must also provide the statement to any person upon request at all airport ticket selling positions, and at all boarding locations being used by the carrier.

DOT rules also prohibit U.S. airlines from limiting their liability for direct or consequential monetary damages that are reasonable, actual, and verifiable resulting from the loss of, damage to, or delay in delivering a passenger’s baggage in domestic transportation to an amount less than $3,500. Carriers must provide passengers with proper notice of the baggage liability limit on or with their tickets.

These consent orders are the result of an unprecedented series of inspections, “Task Force Lightning”, conducted at airports nationwide by the Department’s Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings.

Here is the site and original announcement - They are very responsive to email!

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-transportation-expands-airline-passenger-protections

The 2014 articles all relate to the same incident

U.S. Department of Transportation Fines Qantas for Not Informing ... https://www.transportation.gov/.../us-department-transportation-fines-qantas-not-infor...

Jan 15, 2014 - WASHINGTON – The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) today announced that Qantas Airways, an airline based in Australia, violated ...

Qantas Fined for Failing to Disclose Baggage Fees - U.S. Department ... https://www.transportation.gov/briefing.../qantas-fined-failing-disclose-baggage-fees

Oct 11, 2012 - DOT 112-12 Qantas Fined for Failing to Disclose Baggage FeesWASHINGTON – The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) today assessed ...

DOT Fines Qantas for Violating Price Advertising Rules | Department ... https://www.transportation.gov/briefing.../dot-fines-qantas-violating-price-advertising-ru...
Mar 2, 2012 - The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) today assessed a civil penalty of $40000 against Qantas Airways, a carrier based in Australia, for ...

US authorities fine Qantas for failing to tell passengers they could ... No Cookies | The Advertiser
Jan 16, 2014 - THE US Department of Transportation has fined Qantas for not informing passengers they could get off a heavily delayed flight at Dallas in ...

USA: DOT fines Qantas for not informing passengers of opportunity to ... www.iftta.org/.../usa-dot-fines-qantas-not-informing-passengers-opportunity-leave-de...

Jan 21, 2014 - The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) announced that Qantas Airways violated federal rules last March by not informing passengers on ...

 

[RichardMEL]

Under DOT rules, passengers are eligible for compensation when they are involuntarily bumped from an oversold flight, the amount of which varies based on several factors including the planned arrival time of the substitute transportation arranged (or offered to be arranged). Air carriers must immediately provide passengers who are involuntarily bumped from a flight with a written statement explaining the terms, conditions, and limitations of denied boarding compensation, and describing the carriers’ boarding priority rules and criteria. Carriers must also provide the statement to any person upon request at all airport ticket selling positions, and at all boarding locations being used by the carrier.

hmm yes except in the OP's situation they were not IDB and no flight was oversold. They were on a flight that was cancelled and put on the next (or one of the next) available flights (ie: AA), abeit in a lower class of service (probably due to availability in J).

Yes they are due compensation for sure, but I don't see this as a case of IDB (others may well argue this point it's just my view).

 

[RichardMEL]

I don't know what an FIM is. I've never had to get one. I do know from personal experience that when QF downgrades you involuntarily on a points booking, you have to be very persistent to get any compensation or even to get the correct amount of points refunded. When it happened to me I had to do a lot of "ok, can I speak to your supervisor please" up the chain until I got someone who had enough authority to exercise common sense to resolve the issue.

A FIM, or Flight Interrupt Manifest, is basically (as I understand it) an instrument between carriers with an interline agreement, such as QF and AA, to essentially pay for a seat on the other airline in the case of irregular operations (ie flight cancel in this case). Usually this stuff is handled in the background electronically (and it seems odd that it wasn't in this case). AA and QF are usually very well co-ordinated at LAX (I believe AA hosts the oneworld connection hub there that monitors and handles such things, or is supposed to).

I've seen a few in the "good old days" when everything was paper carbon tickets (remember THOSE days?) and FIM's were manually issued and yes you had to go take that over to whoever. It's pretty rare for pax to see these things for real I would think these days.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

hmm yes except in the OP's situation they were not IDB and no flight was oversold. They were on a flight that was cancelled and put on the next (or one of the next) available flights (ie: AA), abeit in a lower class of service (probably due to availability in J).

Yes they are due compensation for sure, but I don't see this as a case of IDB (others may well argue this point it's just my view).

This was not an IDB.

 

[Rourke]

Furthermore QF's ground team at LAX perhaps don't have the authority to deal with such things (and their main focus on departurees and processing pax is in the evening not so much the morning where they only have one departure but multiple arrivals which may also be a slight factor).

This was a cancellation affecting 100% of QF's departures that morning, so clearly hundreds of pax due to fly QF11 to JFK. Does anyone know of other travellers on 22 March and how they were treated?

 

[RichardMEL]

This was a cancellation affecting 100% of QF's departures that morning, so clearly hundreds of pax due to fly QF11 to JFK. Does anyone know of other travellers on 22 March and how they were treated?

There may not have been hundreds booked on that flight to be fair, but certainly 100+ I'm sure. Howevere not all were booked into PE or J seats. The Y pax, which would have been the majority, would have been squeezed onto AA services no doubt (and maybe some others too).

Also JFK may not have been the final destination of the QF11 pax - they may well have been headed to other east coast ports like BOS or WAS and potentialy put on AA nonstops at LAX.I

I take the point that that one flight being cancelled potentially affected several hundred passengers and the team would have had their work cut out for them.

 

[mikem42]

I find this very troubling. Never have I been made to get a FIM to continue my travel during IRROPS. In my understanding you were a QF PAX ticketed on QF only flights, so you shouldn't have had to interact directly with AA. QF shoud have rebooked you on another flight or provided accommodation and meals if you don't accept the alternative flight in Y until they rebook you on QF11 in J.

We were re-booked on AA, and we were told to liaise with the Qantas ground crew when we arrived in LAX. The ground crew, who were directing customers, told us to go to the AA counter.


There was no expectation that it be solved the same day. We understood that cancellations can happen. We contacted customer care via email while we were on holidays.
Ive posted on the Facebook page, and received a quick response. There suggestion was to contact customer care (which I had already mentioned in my initial post, and that they were unaccommodating).

QF11 LAX-JFK was cancelled on 22 March...so a typo I guess

Yes sorry that was a typo, it was the 22nd of March.

A problem that may arise is that if you book a QFF J award and connect to an AA flight that award gets you into the main cabin only.However now that AA has called their premium cabin a J bucket even though calling it first does that still apply?
It will probably be the line that QF use to refuse compensation.
I would still ask for it though.

The booked flight was Qantas all the way to NYC (no AA codeshare). The plane from LAX to NYC was a Qantas flight.

 

[defurax]

There was no expectation that it be solved the same day. We understood that cancellations can happen. We contacted customer care via email while we were on holidays.
Ive posted on the Facebook page, and received a quick response. There suggestion was to contact customer care (which I had already mentioned in my initial post, and that they were unaccommodating).

You should pursue your claim. I was recently given 7500 points to compensate for a defective IFE system, so they should at least give you back the difference in points between LAX-JFK J and Y award!!

 

[mikem42]

Agree but how do you know something like this wasn't offered? Not sure that detail was provided by the OP

I also believe the assumption would be reasonable that pax wants to get to destination sooner rather than later and if it was only Y avail it seems reasonable to put them on the next flight.

Now if QF post trip gives nothing back for the fare paid and invol downgrade that was their fault, that's a whole other matter.

I flew UA (yes them ) last year LAX-SFO-PDX.. missed the connection due to 45min in the penalty box at SFO.. UA put me in Y on the next flight 3 hours later (I was a YUPP type fare) as there was no F seats avail for like 6 hours. After the fact gave me $400. Sure it was only a 1 hour ish flight so Y was fine but it was sorted out. I got there in reasonable time and got (pretty good really) comp for it. Sure it's not the 5+ hours to JFK but same deal IMHO. just get there..

Also in my vew revenue or award doesn't matter that much in this instance - it was a paid ticket and QF caused the issue by cancelling the connection. makes no difference on payment method IMHO

We were only offered another alternative from AA when we further complained at the AA counter.
They had a business class flight at 12:30AM (overnight flight to NYC). They couldn't guarantee us the seats, they said we could go on the waitlist (for business class).
We could have attempted to negotiate with Qantas (at the international terminal), but by that point we were having a rough time running around with an unhappy infant...