Appalling service and care from Qantas

[RichardMEL]

We were only offered another alternative from AA when we further complained at the AA counter.
They had a business class flight at 12:30AM (overnight flight to NYC). They couldn't guarantee us the seats, they said we could go on the waitlist (for business class).
We could have attempted to negotiate with Qantas (at the international terminal), but by that point we were having a rough time running around with an unhappy infant...

Thanks for this update.

Yes that would have been rough, and an offered standby seat at like 15-16 hours later is clearly not reasonable, unless they would have also thrown in a day room at a hotel ro rest and refresh (and AA wouldn't given it would have been QF). I can totally understand you just wanting to get there and settle down.

It seems that AA perhaps did not know you were on a J ticket (using points or cash not really relevant at this point) and even if they did by that point all the seats would be full of paid and AA's own pax (let alone higher status off QF snagging the few that may have been about - getting 2 seats plus infant would be a challenge I imagine!)

I'd also venture the whole FIM thing, which should have happened in the "back room" and transparent to yourselves is a clue that something went wrong in a major way.. maybe an error with just your travel or potentially others. That's really bad.. cough layered upon cough (as Gordon Ramsay may have said).


It's very poor if customer care have not responded with anything a month post flight. That's just not good enough

 

[MEL_Traveller]

...so they should at least give you back the difference in points between LAX-JFK J and Y award!!

Knowing QF's calculations they won't take the LAX-JFK sector in isolation... they'll probably take the pro-rata - which I think I was able to calculate as low as 14K or something (as I originally posted upthread).

 

[moa999]

Knowing QF, they will say a J+Y booking would be the same points cost as a J+J, so no refund is due but here is some nominal amount

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Knowing QF, they will say a J+Y booking would be the same points cost as a J+J, so no refund is due but here is some nominal amount

This is covered by the QFFF terms and conditions which state (my underline):

14.4.3 Where mixed-class travel is booked on a Trip, the Points required for that Trip will be calculated using the lowest quoted Points level of either:
a) the Points level for the highest class of travel flown on that Trip; or
b) the sum of Points, breaking the Trip into multiple Trips wherever the class of travel changes between sectors within a Trip.

Using the QF award tables SYD-LAX in full business would be 128K, SYD-LAX in business would be 96 and LAX-JFK in coach would be 22.5K.

The max total that could be charged for the trip would therefore be 96K + 22.5K = 118.5K = return to passenger of 9500 points.

Alternatively QF could simply use the LAX-JFK full pricing (50K in J v 22.5K in Y) and give the passenger back 22.5K - but that seems a best case scenario, and more likely they would go for the lower offer.

 

[RAM]

This was not an IDB.

The DoT encourage passengers to contact them to find out if they received their rights.

Nothing in writing from Qantas = not fulfilling US DoT requirements regardless of what the issue is.

For example Q not informing passengers (and indeed mis-informing them) about right to get off delayed plane in Dallas is just one of many examples of Q being in the wrong over the years.

In Australia we have the weakest passenger/consumer rights of virtually any OECD economy (cc fraud for example). Q and others get away with murder in Australia - the pollies being in the Chairman's Club no doubt helps Q significantly.

The treatment received was poor for a single adult traveller let alone a couple travelling with a baby.

mikem42 - draft a concise email similar to your first (now corrected post) outline everything in dot point form and ask whether Q (and AA) fulfilled what is required of them. It also would not hurt to let Q know that your next step is contacting the US Dot on the Q FB page...

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The DoT encourage passengers to contact them to find out if they received their rights.

Nothing in writing from Qantas = not fulfilling US DoT requirements regardless of what the issue is.

Qantas cancelled their flight. What is the requirement from DOT for something in writing?

The rest of the handling may have been a shambles, but that doesn't mean any DOT rules or regulations were broken.

This DOT statement on passenger rights makes it clear that - unlike IDBs - there is no little or no protection for delayed or cancelled flights: https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

All the advice on the 'delayed and cancelled flights' section actually encourages the passenger to seek alternative arrangements, and for the passenger to actively ask whether the cancelling carrier will endorse tickets etc etc.

If this was an IDB Qantas would have been required to put something in writing.


Quote from the above link:

Contrary to popular belief, for domestic itineraries airlines are not required to compensate passengers whose flights are delayed or canceled. As discussed in the chapter on overbooking, compensation is required by law on domestic trips only when you are "bumped" from a flight that is oversold. On international itineraries, passengers may be able to recover reimbursement under Article 19 of the Montreal Convention for expenses resulting from a delayed or canceled flight by filing a claim with the airline. If the claim is denied, you may pursue the matter in small claims court if you believe that the carrier did not take all measures that could reasonably be required to avoid the damages caused by the delay.

 

[RichardMEL]

The DoT encourage passengers to contact them to find out if they received their rights.

Nothing in writing from Qantas = not fulfilling US DoT requirements regardless of what the issue is.

For example Q not informing passengers (and indeed mis-informing them) about right to get off delayed plane in Dallas is just one of many examples of Q being in the wrong over the years.

In Australia we have the weakest passenger/consumer rights of virtually any OECD economy (cc fraud for example). Q and others get away with murder in Australia - the pollies being in the Chairman's Club no doubt helps Q significantly.

The treatment received was poor for a single adult traveller let alone a couple travelling with a baby..

You seem to have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about QF tbh, but moving on...


Again, a flight cancellation is NOT an IDB situation and I fail to see how being put on the next available flight is a violation of DOT rules or requirements of airlines. Were they forced to stay overnight when arriving at ~7am? No. They were offered a red eye flight option that MAYBE might get them into J - that is not Q's fault if AA has no space for unexpected pax.. it's also not AA's.

Now yes, the stuff up with the FIM forcing to/from between T4 and TBIT is very very poor but it's obviously not deliberate, and again I do not see any violation of DOT rules or regulations.

While sitting in Y after flying 14 hours with a one year old is far from ideal, the (relatively unusual) cxl of the QF11 tag to JFK also is. Pax weren't held for hours with no options or forced to stay (it seems) an unusually long amount of time and QF/AA worked to get people where they needed to go. Not sure how this is a violation.

To me the issue here is how QF responds now in terms of addressing the downgrade and inconvenience incured. I think it's all about service recovery at this point. So far they seem to have failed to respond reasonably to the OP.

my 2 cents.

 

[penegal]

As RooFlyer stated, 30K points seems like a fair request. The refunded points for the fare difference and a bit extra for the inconvenience.

I have misconnected in LAX countless times and have never had a FIM or any other random paperwork. I just get given a boarding pass for the new service (in the same cabin class).

I don't really understand what happened to the OP, but that side of it seems quite odd.

 

[RAM]

You seem to have a bit of a be in your bonnet about QF tbh, but moving on...

No "bee in my bonnet" - any company that does not do the right thing by their customers needs to be taken to task.

Q has a recent history of not meeting its obligations under US Law and, as I stated, it seems to be the most frequently fined foreign airline operating in the US. Technically it cancelled part of an international flight booking operated by Q itself an international not domestic carrier.

The US grants rights to consumers far above what we receive in Australia. Q has repeatedly not followed the rules and subsequently been fined over USD 500,000 over a number of years.

Asking the DoT cannot hurt anyone but Q can it? Seems that some are more concerned about Q than mikem42.

 

[RichardMEL]

No "bee in my bonnet" - any company that does not do the right thing by their customers needs to be taken to task.

Q has a recent history of not meeting its obligations under US Law and, as I stated, it seems to be the most frequently fined foreign airline operating in the US. Technically it cancelled part of an international flight booking operated by Q itself an international not domestic carrier.

The US grants rights to consumers far above what we receive in Australia. Q has repeatedly not followed the rules and subsequently been fined over USD 500,000 over a number of years.

Asking the DoT cannot hurt anyone but Q can it? Seems that some are more concerned about Q than mikem42.

Fine but

in this SPECIFIC INSTANCE ....

Are you saying you feel QF have not met their obligations to the passenger?

I'm not talking about the weird FIM issue but.. have they, in your view, not met their obligations in this specific example? If so, how?

 

[RAM]

Fine but

in this SPECIFIC INSTANCE ....

Are you saying you feel QF have not met their obligations to the passenger?

I'm not talking about the weird FIM issue but.. have they, in your view, not met their obligations in this specific example? If so, how?

Well how about these instances:

1. Did not provide any written information about their rights due to cancelled flight operated by Q (US requirement)
2. Did not correctly deal with new flight allocation process
3. Did not correctly fill out paper work
4. Made no apparent attempt to help a family travelling with young child
5. Appear to be making no attempt subsequently to fix the situation that resulted
6. Appear to be adopting historical operating procedure - ignore customer until apathy takes over

Apart from that Q performed admirably!

Rather than get into a back & forth - let us see what comes of mikem42 contacting the US DoT - I'd rather deal with reality than assumption.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Well how about these instances:

1. Did not provide any written information about their rights due to cancelled flight operated by Q (US requirement)
2. Did not correctly deal with new flight allocation process
3. Did not correctly fill out paper work
4. Made no apparent attempt to help a family travelling with young child
5. Appear to be making no atenmpt subsequently to fix the situation that resulted
6. Appear to be adopting historical operating procedure - ignore customer until apathy takes over

Apart from that Q performed admirably!

Rather than get into a back & forth - let us see what comes of mikem42 contacting the US DoT - I'd rather deal with reality than assumption.

RAM... where is the requirement for 1. above... ie that airlines must provide written rights about flight cancellations? I can't find them anywhere, and they don't appear in the link to the DOT document.

Can an you provide a link because that would be helpful to the OP.

 

[RichardMEL]

1. Did not provide any written information about their rights due to cancelled flight operated by Q (US requirement)

So let me see...

from DOT:
https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights#Delayed-and-Cancelled-Flights

Quote in part, bolding mine:

If your flight is canceled, most airlines will rebook you on their first flight to your destination on which space is available, at no additional charge. If this involves a significant delay, find out if another carrier has space and ask the first airline if they will endorse your ticket to the other carrier. Finding extra seats may be difficult, however, especially over holidays and other peak travel times.

Each airline has its own policies about what it will do for delayed passengers waiting at the airport; there are no federal requirements. If you are delayed, ask the airline staff if it will pay for meals or a phone call. Some airlines, often those charging very low fares, do not provide any amenities to stranded passengers. Others may not offer amenities if the delay is caused by bad weather or something else beyond the airline's control. Contrary to popular belief, for domestic itineraries airlines are not required to compensate passengers whose flights are delayed or canceled. As discussed in the chapter on overbooking, compensation is required by law on domestic trips only when you are "bumped" from a flight that is oversold. On international itineraries, passengers may be able to recover reimbursement under Article 19 of the Montreal Convention for expenses resulting from a delayed or canceled flight by filing a claim with the airline. If the claim is denied, you may pursue the matter in small claims court if you believe that the carrier did not take all measures that could reasonably be required to avoid the damages caused by the delay.

"There are no federal requirements" seems pretty clear, nor is there mention of notification in writing.

 

[RichardMEL]

Please note I'm not going on about this to be a PITA. There's some genuine (I feel) room for misunderstandings here about what the requirements and rights are.. and I'd just like to have it clarified for *everyone* - not least the OP, but anyone else stuck in a similar situation...

 

[drron]

We were re-booked on AA, and we were told to liaise with the Qantas ground crew when we arrived in LAX. The ground crew, who were directing customers, told us to go to the AA counter.


There was no expectation that it be solved the same day. We understood that cancellations can happen. We contacted customer care via email while we were on holidays.
Ive posted on the Facebook page, and received a quick response. There suggestion was to contact customer care (which I had already mentioned in my initial post, and that they were unaccommodating).




Yes sorry that was a typo, it was the 22nd of March.




The booked flight was Qantas all the way to NYC (no AA codeshare). The plane from LAX to NYC was a Qantas flight.

Knowing QF, they will say a J+Y booking would be the same points cost as a J+J, so no refund is due but here is some nominal amount

This is covered by the QFFF terms and conditions which state (my underline):



Using the QF award tables SYD-LAX in full business would be 128K, SYD-LAX in business would be 96 and LAX-JFK in coach would be 22.5K.

The max total that could be charged for the trip would therefore be 96K + 22.5K = 118.5K = return to passenger of 9500 points.

Alternatively QF could simply use the LAX-JFK full pricing (50K in J v 22.5K in Y) and give the passenger back 22.5K - but that seems a best case scenario, and more likely they would go for the lower offer.

The last 2 quotes are the point I was making.QF have always tried to limit compensation and this is the way they will probably do it.it doesn't matter that you were booked on a QF flight.The flight you got was an AA flight so that is what QF will probably argue to limit any pay out.
I brought this point up because forewarned is forearmed.you should consider how you will counter this argument.

 

[Moindardt]

Travelling with 6 of us, we always have delays or cancelled flights or missed connections etc. The best thing I ever did was subscribe to expertflyer. Before I even fly, I generally know approx what options are available if something goes wrong.

When it inevitably goes wrong I then approach the agent knowing possibilities of options and work out a solution. Sometimes it is some or all of us flying in a different class, sometimes on a different, even non-Oneworld carrier. If you are aggressive or antagonistic towards them, expect to get shafted. The most important thing is to decide whether compensation is your goal or getting to where you are going. If they provide you with a solution and you accept it, you don't have much chance of compensation.

Travel Insurance is also very important in this context. Our last trip, we had 5 cancelled/delayed flights and still basically achieved everything. As an example, we had BOS-ORD-SEA-YVR on it and they cancelled the BOS-ORD a few weeks before. We got them to reroute BOS-PDX-SEA-YVR on Alaskan instead. Our flight into Boston was late, causing us to miss our BOS-PDX and they rerouted BOS-SEA (but all Y) but it didn't have an MCT to do the SEA-YVR. We looked at all different options including a stopover. We had a transfer from YVR to Whistler booked for the following morning. I rang the insurance company and they paid for a Limo Van to take us from SEA to YVR to meet our transfer.

My point is "****e happens" and as the OP stated, AA tried to work with him, provided him with a solution and he accepted it. If he wanted compo, he should have had QF re-organise things and get the compo done at the time and most likely he would have been on later flights and at the bottom of the pile. What he is trying to do now is like ringing a restaurant to complain about a meal the next day.

 

[Spongbob]

... What he is trying to do now is like ringing a restaurant to complain about a meal the next day.

Given that the OP also appears on Flyertalk, I get the impression the author only wants responses that are sympathetic and not those noting the realities of commercial airline travel.

 

[gphamor]

I doubt it...

 

[cherft]

Absolutely horrible experience and total lack of service from Qantas staff, agents, and customer care.

My wife, 1 year old son, and I were travelling from Sydney to New York on the 22nd of April on QF11 (with short transfer in LA).

We booked business class reward seats with our hard earned points a good 9 months before the flight, so we could comfortably travel with our one year old.

We were told towards the end of the Syd to LA leg that our transfer to NYC was cancelled and that we had been re-booked on an American Airlines flight.

Upon arrival to LA, Qantas staff directed us to the AA terminal to get our new boarding passes. Once at AA terminal, agent notified us that we had been downgraded to Economy (no mention of this from Qantas flight attendant on plane), and to add insult to injury, told us that we had to return to the International terminal to get an FIM document so she could print our boarding passes!!

We returned to International terminal to get an FIM from a Qantas agent, returned to AA only to be told that they still couldn't give us our new boarding passes because the Qantas agent made a mistake on the FIM document!!!

Once agin returned to Qantas agent who finally got it right. No empathy or support from any Qantas or AA agents, considering our situation with a crying and tired 1 year old, and business class customers.

We proceeded to give Qantas customer care feedback/complaint in regards to the situation asking to be compensated for our loss (LA to NYC business class flight). They have given us no compensation, and their response was to "let management know so that they could better help others in the future"???

Extremely disappointed and complete lack of care and service from Qantas.

Does anyone give us any advice in regards to getting compensation from Qantas?

Mike

Sorry Mike, i have no advice to proffer, just sympathy for this disgusting behaviour by QF. I reckon it is the LA desk that is disfunctional, not necessarily all of QF.
I had very similar experiences in LA and have read many other complaints.

Take the advice, Mike, of some of the other respondents and badger them on social media and maybe the relevant consumer organisation in your state.

Good luck; i look forward to reading about some success in retribution.

 

[Roberto]

If QF won't sort it or offer appropriate compensation, would a CC charge back for the taxes/surcharges you paid be warranted?

I agree - you didn't get what you paid for so a charge back is absolutely warranted. So far Qantas has been ignoring you. A charge back should get their attention.