Are you Going to use the COVIDsafe App?

[serfty]

I did research this a fair bit and I decided I was happy to:

Privacy Policy

The COVIDSafe app speeds up contacting people exposed to coronavirus (COVID-19). This helps us support and protect you, your friends and family. Please read the content on this page before downloading.

www.health.gov.au

 

[Anna]

The govt must have a more nuanced aim than 10 million downloads. For example it would be pretty useless if nobody in Sydney or NSW downloaded it but 10 million other people did elsewhere in Australia. I wonder what the real download target is and how it looks geographically.

Other than people I know from AFF, nobody that I know has downloaded it yet. Not because of strong objections to it but mainly either because they say 'we've had no infections here in SA for a week and only a couple in the week before that so it's unnecessary here' or 'oh yeah, that app, no I haven't done it yet, I probably will get round to it', I suspect meaning 'no I can't be bothered'.

 

[OATEK]

That seems pretty harsh. I for one value people’s opinions whether I agree with them or not, preferably politely put. And I don’t feel nervous or fatigued.

If you install and run the App and are diagnosed with COVID-19 you will be asked for your permission to have the App data uploaded.
If you consent this allows the Doctors and Nurses and others in the relevant State Public Health services to have mobile telephone numbers of people they should contact to inform them that they have been in close contact with a patient who has COVID-19 and should attend a test centre if deemed necessary for testing.

It’s called contact tracing, it’s infinitely easier, quicker and more reliable if it doesn’t rely on the memory of the patient to detail every random person they were beside at work, school or Westfield
If it is taken up and successful it will allow us to contact trace and prevent widespread community transmission, with the ultimate goal of getting the country (and the footy) up and running again.
Collectively the Australian public as a whole has done a massive effort to get us where we are now.
If we can replicate that effort with this App we will smash it out of the park.

I am always prepared to listen to people's opinion, and make up my own mind whether they are valuable. If the comments had produced some evidence to support the extreme anti-opinion, I might have found the opinion valuable. I contrast the Professor's "opinion" with the thoughtful and informed opinion from someone on the front line against this virus - PF!

 

[serfty]

It's all academic - the app will pick up virtually nothing because the restrictions to date have been so draconian, the infection clusters so localised, and the chances of a 'second wave' from overseas, after the lesson of the debacles and all cruise ships incubators now shot of, are now remote. (None of that is meant as a pejorative comment.)

The point is that with many people having the app operating, these restrictions can be relaxed as tracing of those who would have been in contact with someone diagnosed becomes generally easier.

But if it helps relax some of the, what I believe are in some cases unsoundly-based overly-onerous restrictions, then that is a good thing....

Yes!

...Other than people I know from AFF, nobody that I know has downloaded it yet. Not because of strong objections to it but mainly either because they say 'we've had no infections here in SA for a week and only a couple in the week before that so it's unnecessary here' or 'oh yeah, that app, no I haven't done it yet, I probably will get round to it', I suspect meaning 'no I can't be bothered'.

There are many who won't download the app, purely because of political bias. As for "we've had no infections here", what happens with relaxed restrictions and infections begin to increase (which will happen)? With the app, such outbreaks/clusters can be more easily determined and acted upon.

 

[pjm99au]

The point is that with many people having the app operating, these restrictions can be relaxed as tracing of those who would have been in contact with someone diagnosed becomes generally easier.
Yes!
There are many who won't download the app, purely because of political bias. As for "we've had no infections here", what happens with relaxed restrictions and infections begin to increase (which will happen)? With the app, such outbreaks/clusters can be more easily determined and acted upon.

I’ll add. Download the App activate it. Turn it off if you don’t trust it. The mere fact of the greater take up will give the government more confidence that restrictions can be relaxed which will help in getting the economy going again and the enormous amount of people suffering financially will have a chance of work.

 

[Grantxw8]

I'm not intending to download the app. My essential reasoning is that it's virtually irrelevant to my life style.
1. It would be extremely rare for me to spend 15 minutes within 1.5 m of anyone without either knowing who they are or, alternatively being on a plane when my Bluetooth is off.
2. I'm dubious of the technology used. I've worked quite a bit with Bluetooth and that 1.5 m has to have a huge error factor.
3. I'm dubious of the logic used. Thirty seconds near someone sneezing would be enough for infection to happen.
4. Potential for false positives. I see the point in high density situations, where the general vague nature of the information may be of benefit but in an Australia, already practising social distancing? I do not want to be logged as a potential positive, based on a phone app. A phone is not a scientific instrument. One little quirk and perhaps that 15 minutes turns to 15 ms? Perhaps the 1.5 m doesn't work as described on the packet and logs anything within range, which can be 100m + on a good day (50m on an average day!).
5. Potential complications. I use the Bluetooth on my phone quite extensively. I don't want some unknown app messing about with it.
6. Battery life. Bluetooth is a wireless transceiver. To work, it needs to be on. In this context, to work effectively, it needs to be both transmitting to say it's there and also receiving from other phones saying that they are there. If it's really smart and sends out low power pulses every 7.5 minutes, the transmission side could be reduced but the receiver has to be constantly listening.
7. It's dependent on all parties having Bluetooth turned on (refer #6 above!). If half the population downloads it but only turn their Bluetooth on when they feel there's a risk, most of the relevance evaporates.

Basically, I can see no personal or social benefit to be derived from my installing this app but I can see plenty of negatives. Battery life alone is sufficient for me to lose interest.

Hi nutwood,

Interesting post. Addressing your point 1; I just want to point out to other readers that your lifestyle seems atypical for Australia. Perhaps you don't intend to visit a museum, restaurant, cafe, pub, cinema, theatre, sporting arena, etc. where you might be around other people whom you don't know for an extended time. However, those of us of a more social nature (joking) would be doing these things as part of normal life. The CoronaSafe app is intended to help contact tracing now, of course, but also when social distancing restrictions are eased. Once this happens there will be outbreaks and then it will be imperative to do the necessary contact tracing as quickly as possible.

I'm no expert on Bluetooth, but I understand that Bluetooth LE is constantly polling and uses very little power. I have bluetooth on at all times (including while flying) and I get all day battery even on my iPhone XR. Unless you habitually turn Bluetooth off until you need it then you are already experiencing the kind of battery life you would have with this app installed. Please don't allow battery anxiety to stop you doing something simple that could help you and the community stay safe.

 

[nutwood]

Hi nutwood,

Interesting post. Addressing your point 1; I just want to point out to other readers that your lifestyle seems atypical for Australia. Perhaps you don't intend to visit a museum, restaurant, cafe, pub, cinema, theatre, sporting arena, etc. where you might be around other people whom you don't know for an extended time. However, those of us of a more social nature (joking) would be doing these things as part of normal life. The CoronaSafe app is intended to help contact tracing now, of course, but also when social distancing restrictions are eased. Once this happens there will be outbreaks and then it will be imperative to do the necessary contact tracing as quickly as possible.

I'm no expert on Bluetooth, but I understand that Bluetooth LE is constantly polling and uses very little power. I have bluetooth on at all times (including while flying) and I get all day battery even on my iPhone XR. Unless you habitually turn Bluetooth off until you need it then you are already experiencing the kind of battery life you would have with this app installed. Please don't allow battery anxiety to stop you doing something simple that could help you and the community stay safe.

I would agree that my lifestyle probably is atypical for much of Australia but not so unusual for people in rural areas where you may have a full life but mainly contact people you know. The 15 minutes within 1.5 m is not a particularly natural occurrence with strangers. When I'm travelling, I might eat out, but I'm usually travelling alone and pick a quiet table well away from others where I can peacefully read my book whilst I wait for my meal.
The situation with Bluetooth is quite interesting. I'm curious to know more about how it is functioning within the app. I've had a bit to do with Bluetooth but prior to the introduction of "smart" Bluetooth. It's a different beast these days, with the ability to pair to multiple slaves simultaneously. I'm thinking the general principle is the same, wherein it sends out a general enquiry and any other device within range sends back name rank and serial number. Logically, I would think that the effect on battery life would vary enormously, depending on the situation. If your phone is flat out answering to interrogation by many other devices, that'll hammer the battery but not necessarily otherwise.
I'm also interested in the 1.5 m. Without triangulation, there's only really two ways distance could be calculated. One would be the way bats do it, but with radio waves, not sound waves and the other would be signal strength. I'm doubtful that a phone could handle the first and the second seems open to a lot of variables. It'd be interesting to hear from anyone who's more up on the technical side. There's a lot of potential complexities, such as sitting next to someone at a pub, but one of you orders a new drink every fourteen minutes and the connection is broken; or is it coughulative? Five 3 minute exposures throughout the day?

 

[luxury-lizard]

Since there are many varying opinions on the app (CS for short, I presume will become the accepted acronym) here's my point of view:-

• I downloaded the app immediately on release on an older iPhone (model 7)
• There are clearly some issues and confusion regarding use of the app on an iPhone - which will be resolved / clarified in due course (no doubt before restrictions are significantly lifted) - however I also doubt that having some high percentage of app downloads will be necessary and/or sufficient to ease restrictions as some seem to suggest
• My only serious concern is weather the app will work as planned - e.g. issues with Bluetooth and other yet to be identified issues - is 15 minutes sufficient (this is easy to change) - will it work as planned when 100's of 1000's of users are active - etc - however I believe these sort of things will be rectified as time goes on - don't forget we're in this for the long haul - maybe years
• While there is much discussion from many AFF members on treatments and vaccines - many of whom appear to be very knowledgeable - I believe that technology will play a very important role as we (the whole world) move forward - aren't we all members of AFF because travel is an important part of our lives - without a complete medical solution then maybe technology will enable safe travel again in the near future

 

[tomlee1986]

If you install and run the App and are diagnosed with COVID-19 you will be asked for your permission to have the App data uploaded.
If you consent this allows the Doctors and Nurses and others in the relevant State Public Health services to have mobile telephone numbers of people they should contact to inform them that they have been in close contact with a patient who has COVID-19 and should attend a test centre if deemed necessary for testing.

It’s called contact tracing, it’s infinitely easier, quicker and more reliable if it doesn’t rely on the memory of the patient to detail every random person they were beside at work, school or Westfield
If it is taken up and successful it will allow us to contact trace and prevent widespread community transmission, with the ultimate goal of getting the country (and the footy) up and running again.
Collectively the Australian public as a whole has done a massive effort to get us where we are now.
If we can replicate that effort with this App we will smash it out of the park.

Thank you for your very detailed explanation on this contact tracing component of the app

 

[tomlee1986]

While I cannot speak for anyone else of course, I have no intention of placing myself within 1.5 metres of anyone outside of my household for anything getting close to 15 minutes. No sitting around waiting for appointments. Sitting in waiting rooms should be avoided. If I need to see a health specialist (while conscious) then I will be waiting outside.

I hope that that we are all doing similar.

I completely agree with you there... this is because I would feel more safer if at home isolating, instead of standing next to someone near me for 15 minutes unless necessary...

 

[RooFlyer]

<snipped>

Basically, I can see no personal or social benefit to be derived from my installing this app but I can see plenty of negatives. Battery life alone is sufficient for me to lose interest.

For all that, you appear to have missed the point of the app entirely. Its designed to assist in contact tracing in the currently unlikely event of a close contact with someone infected. Its not claimed to be a perfect metric solution. Its also designed to be a form of social 'insurance' which the authorities can use to justify the opening up of the economy sooner rather than later. I reckon all your bits about battery life, Bluetooth interference etc are just elements of post-self-justification for a decision already made, not actual issues with using the app. Similar reasoning applied to driving a car, owing a dog, watching TV, flying etc would see the abandoning of all of those activities - we could all dream up 'problems' with them, most of which if viewed objectively would be nonsense.

Funnily enough, my travel and lifestyle profile seems very close to yours, yet I had no hesitation in downloading and using the app. I feel much better about myself now, knowing I'm doing something that is not just all about me.

ps iPhones at least will tell you battery consumption per app. Mine got to 1% one day, and most days its ' - ' In these days of lock-down, can you spare that much power, for a social good? Brother, can you spare a dime?

 

[get me outta here]

Absolutely no disputing Princess Fiona’s expert advice. Listening to various sides does not negate or undermine other’s views.

Re whatever the prof said, there was no “evidence to support the extreme anti-opinion”, as it it was a superficial post, with some judgemental personal comments thrown in later. One cannot rely on that to find out whether anyone’s opinion (differing, or confirming, or supporting bias), is valuable or not. But, we can still be polite.

I am always prepared to listen to people's opinion, and make up my own mind whether they are valuable. If the comments had produced some evidence to support the extreme anti-opinion, I might have found the opinion valuable. I contrast the Professor's "opinion" with the thoughtful and informed opinion from someone on the front line against this virus - PF!

 

[prozac]

I think downloading the app should be incentivised. No, not a free case of beer , but say in terms of access to some currently restricted activities.
If the app is downloaded and active on your phone you are one of a group of people who will be allowed access to restaurants etc. Before you enter a venue you display the app. tick of approval or whatever it might be on your phone, and you are permitted to enter. Without it you can legally be refused entry.
In this way the medical authorities will be able to quickly trace any 2nd wave outbreak and the govt. might be more prepared to lift some restrictions.

 

[nutwood]

For all that, you appear to have missed the point of the app entirely. Its designed to assist in contact tracing in the currently unlikely event of a close contact with someone infected. Its not claimed to be a perfect metric solution. Its also designed to be a form of social 'insurance' which the authorities can use to justify the opening up of the economy sooner rather than later. I reckon all your bits about battery life, Bluetooth interference etc are just elements of post-self-justification for a decision already made, not actual issues with using the app. Similar reasoning applied to driving a car, owing a dog, watching TV, flying etc would see the abandoning of all of those activities - we could all dream up 'problems' with them, most of which if viewed objectively would be nonsense.

Funnily enough, my travel and lifestyle profile seems very close to yours, yet I had no hesitation in downloading and using the app. I feel much better about myself now, knowing I'm doing something that is not just all about me.

ps iPhones at least will tell you battery consumption per app. Mine got to 1% one day, and most days its ' - ' In these days of lock-down, can you spare that much power, for a social good? Brother, can you spare a dime?

If your lifestyle is similar to mine, the app is likely to be as much good to you as me. If you're not in contact with people, what's the point? If it makes you feel better about yourself though, that's a perfectly legitimate objective in it's own right, and one that I think a lot of people may well share.
With regard to battery life and messing with Bluetooth, you are not correct in suggesting some form of self justification. If I was totally comfortable with the app, I'd download it on the basis of "why not?". My concerns are not serious, however when I can see absolutely no benefit, why would I ignore even minor concerns?
I use the Bluetooth on my phone as part of my work and I don't particularly want to be depending on it to relay a reading to me, only to find it's busy exchanging phone numbers with twenty people who just pulled up in a bus.

 

[DC3]

My phone must be too old and 'does not meet the requirements'. Could be a good excuse to buy myself a new phone.

If you buy the new phone, will you need to seek out random strangers and stay close to them for more than 15 minutes in order to benefit from the app?

 

[nutwood]

I think downloading the app should be incentivised. No, not a free case of beer , but say in terms of access to some currently restricted activities.
If the app is downloaded and active on your phone you are one of a group of people who will be allowed access to restaurants etc. Before you enter a venue you display the app. tick of approval or whatever it might be on your phone, and you are permitted to enter. Without it you can legally be refused entry.
In this way the medical authorities will be able to quickly trace any 2nd wave outbreak and the govt. might be more prepared to lift some restrictions.

Wouldn't it be easier and more reliable to ask people to fill out a visitors book as they enter the restaurant?

 

[Pushka]

Wouldn't it be easier and more reliable to ask people to fill out a visitors book as they enter the restaurant?

So you'd be ok with signing a book that everyone before you has signed? And others after you will see and sign. Showing the Restaurant and others your name and mobile? so in the case of Covid the Restaurant would have to hand over that book for someone else to go through and contact everyone on it?
How is that easier?

 

[DC3]

....Before you enter a venue you display the app. tick of approval or whatever it might be on your phone, and you are permitted to enter. Without it you can legally be refused entry.
In this way the medical authorities will be able to quickly trace any 2nd wave outbreak and the govt. might be more prepared to lift some restrictions.

Or, the app could allow cafes, restaurants, bars, cinemas, etc, etc, to now reopen. Things could get back to ‘near normal’ today. We could be near strangers for more than 15 minutes and the app would trace the (possible) infection sources.

No signing-in required.

Edited

 

[GoldCanyon340]

If the app is downloaded and active on your phone you are one of a group of people who will be allowed access to restaurants etc. Before you enter a venue you display the app. tick of approval or whatever it might be on your phone, and you are permitted to enter. Without it you can legally be refused entry.

Absolutely, absolutely no.

 

[OATEK]

But, we can still be polite.

I assume not directed at me on this occasion?

 

[DC3]

I assume not directed at me on this occasion?

Going a bit OT here, but a few years back, a work colleague read an anonymous article (in the workplace) about an unnamed nasty, back-stabbing, two-faced, mealy-mouthed, lying bi@&h. Anyway, the colleague went right off, screaming “But that’s me” and was appalled that someone would write about her in those terms.

The thing was, that she instantly recognised who the article was describing, as horrible as the description was.

(Not directed at OATEK, however)