Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

From my memory you have the DXB flight coming up.

How is the trip reporting.

Has there been any maintenance issues due to the sand in DXB

There certainly can be issues due to the sand. There are some quite lengthy checks that can be required depending upon intensity. I haven't heard of any problems so far though.

 

[jb747]

So, after 10 weeks of not flying, the sim consisted of practice. Normal circuits, just like you do in your Cessna. Low vis take offs and landings. V1 cuts with abort and take off, and manual 3 engined landing.

The flight was from HK to Sydney. Weather at HK was benign, but low cloud. Sydney was a beautiful morning. Overall very straightforward. Biggest negative was that after being away for so long, my sleep patterns had become normal. So being awake most of the night was quite a struggle. Landing in Sydney, I felt a little behind the aircraft (but the FO made sure that I wasn't too far back). Nice touchdown. Now I'm let loose again....

 

[Skyhigh777]

Good to hear! I was listening to your arrival on ATC live, i guess your FO was handling the radio duties.

 

[SenZubEanS]

Hi JB,
Was just sent this video from a friend, pretty shocking, of a crashing 747 in Afghanistan. Looks like it stalls and then just drops like a rock.
To your trained eye, anything in particular you can see as an external factor?

Dramatic footage: Cargo Boeing 747 crashes at Bagram Airfield - YouTube

 

[jb747]

Was just sent this video from a friend, pretty shocking, of a crashing 747 in Afghanistan. Looks like it stalls and then just drops like a rock.
To your trained eye, anything in particular you can see as an external factor?

Dramatic footage: Cargo Boeing 747 crashes at Bagram Airfield - YouTube

Horrifying bit of video.

Almost certainly, the cargo has shifted at lift off, CofG has moved aft, and there's no longer anywhere near enough elevator available to control it.

So, yes, what you're seeing is a deep stall. If it were higher, I'd expect it would have developed into a spin.

 

[chrisb]

Avherald is reporting that someone listening heard the pilots report possible load shift causing stall. It was carrying five military vehicles.

The load master was one of the ones killed.

 

[jb747]

Avherald is reporting that someone listening heard the pilots report possible load shift causing stall. It was carrying five military vehicles.

The load master was one of the ones killed.

I'd take reports of a radio call with a grain of salt. Any radio call would have been off the bottom of the priority list.

Load shift accidents have a pretty definite signature, and this certainly looks to have all the characteristics.

There's some film somewhere on the net of a USN C2 Greyhound having the load shift in the catapult shot. It all happens lower and faster, but it's exactly the same profile.
Ah, here's the reference Navy C-2 Greyhound Crash - YouTube

 

[simongr]

I felt a little behind the aircraft (but the FO made sure that I wasn't too far back). Nice touchdown. Now I'm let loose again....

What do you mean - felt a little behind the aircraft?

Is there a procedure where you can pull the pin on a flight if you aren't feeling up to it? So in this example after a period of non-flying if you felt you hadn't had enough sleep can you say you don't feel fit to fly?

 

[mannej]

I guess this is a question in regards to the 747 accident. Is load shift more prevalent to a type of aircraft (heavy, narrow body, light etc) or more of a risk in certain types of flight ops (cargo v commuter etc)?

 

[jb747]

What do you mean - felt a little behind the aircraft?

Normally you want to be thinking about what will happen next, not reacting to whatever just happened (although obviously that's not always going to be possible). I certainly wasn't actually thinking 'behind' the aircraft, it's simply a term we use. I just wasn't quite as far ahead as I normally am. That cycles around....sometimes you're really hot, and sometimes less so.

Is there a procedure where you can pull the pin on a flight if you aren't feeling up to it? So in this example after a period of non-flying if you felt you hadn't had enough sleep can you say you don't feel fit to fly?

There is certainly a procedure to use if you feel you are too fatigued to operate a flight. If you don't feel your abilities are up to it, then it's time to retire....

 

[jb747]

I guess this is a question in regards to the 747 accident. Is load shift more prevalent to a type of aircraft (heavy, narrow body, light etc) or more of a risk in certain types of flight ops (cargo v commuter etc)?

It's a particular risk in dedicated cargo operations. Firstly there is a lot of heavy cargo, and secondly it's almost always on pallets that sit on rollers built into the floor. So, if the cargo is not properly locked into place, and it moves far enough aft, that will take the CofG too far to the rear. The aircraft will then start to pitch up. If it goes far enough, full nose down elevator and trim, will not be sufficient to get the nose moving down, and the aircraft will stall.

 

[Boris spatsky]

As a heavy cargo aircraft pilot in the past, i can say that i never saw a load shift in flight in 10 years. The restraint procedures are extensive, especially for vehicles. But if the load does shift enough, you have nowhere to go as JB said. Some cargo aircraft have a very small CofG margin.

My greatest concern was always volatile dangerous goods causing an uncontrollable fire - plenty of examples of crashes and loss of life from that - the Asiana 744 off Seoul, Lufthansa cargo MD11 in Saudi etc.

 

[jb747]

My greatest concern was always volatile dangerous goods causing an uncontrollable fire - plenty of examples of crashes and loss of life from that - the Asiana 744 off Seoul, Lufthansa cargo MD11 in Saudi etc.

And don't forget lithium batteries....I think they have already accounted for two 747 freighters.

 

[mjt57]

And don't forget lithium batteries....I think they have already accounted for two 747 freighters.

Are those the same batteries which we can't send in Australia Post or ones that the aircraft themselves use?

If the former, how are they all shipped from Ebay sellers in Hong Kong to Oz?

Anyway, hope the missus doesn't see that video (although it'll no doubt feature prominently on the news tonight). I can see her demanding to inspect the cargo hold on our flight before it departs on Sat morning. Or making the flight crew do it...

 

[markis10]

Are those the same batteries which we can't send in Australia Post or ones that the aircraft themselves use?

If the former, how are they all shipped from Ebay sellers in Hong Kong to Oz?

Anyway, hope the missus doesn't see that video (although it'll no doubt feature prominently on the news tonight). I can see her demanding to inspect the cargo hold on our flight before it departs on Sat morning. Or making the flight crew do it...

Australia Post has a blanket ban on all batteries being posted by Air in Australia, whilst airlines and cargo companies have in general adopted the IATA guidelines on the matter as they realise a blanket ban might be detrimental to business to say the least :

IATA - Lithium Batteries

 

[Boris spatsky]

Are those the same batteries which we can't send in Australia Post or ones that the aircraft themselves use?

If the former, how are they all shipped from Ebay sellers in Hong Kong to Oz?

Anyway, hope the missus doesn't see that video (although it'll no doubt feature prominently on the news tonight). I can see her demanding to inspect the cargo hold on our flight before it departs on Sat morning. Or making the flight crew do it...

There are different standards for cargo only aircraft with respect to dangerous goods compared to passenger aircraft (passenger being far more restrictive). Batteries are but one type of Dangerous Good - there are other arguably more volatile items that are carried in cargo aircraft. Carriage of Dangerous Goods is complex - total volume limits, total weight for a specific class/item, packing standards, separation of varying classes and sub classes. There is great potential for disaster if done incorrectly.

 

[jb747]

To be honest, I think the paint scheme is irrelevant.

Looking further at the video....the gear is down for the whole time. That means that the problem was evident immediately after liftoff, as gear retraction occurs as soon as you're off the ground. A cargo shift could have happened with the acceleration on the runway, or the rotation, but as has been mentioned already, items are normally very firmly locked into place.

So, my guess is that the loading was always wrong. This may make itself evident as more information becomes available, in particular if there are indications of early rotation or tail scrape.

Load the aircraft too far forward, and it will never rotate. Load it too far aft, and it will sit on its bum at the ramp. But, there is an intermediate position in which it will behave reasonably on the ground, but will be too far aft to fly safely. The first indication the crew might have of this is if the aircraft wants to rotate early, without any pilot input. This will probably happen past V1, so whilst the only viable response would be to abort, it's also against virtually all training to do so.

 

[JohnM]

So, my guess is that the loading was always wrong. This may make itself evident as more information becomes available, in particular if there are indications of early rotation or tail scrape.

Load the aircraft too far forward, and it will never rotate. Load it too far aft, and it will sit on its bum at the ramp. But, there is an intermediate position in which it will behave reasonably on the ground, but will be too far aft to fly safely. The first indication the crew might have of this is if the aircraft wants to rotate early, without any pilot input. This will happen past V1, so whilst the only viable response would be to abort, it's also against virtually all training to do so.

How is load balance achieved? Are there sensors at various points in the aircraft suspension?

 

[defurax]

Question that has nothing to do with the 747F crash...
I was in the PER QF domestic lounge twice last week on different days and whilst looking at the activity on the tarmac I saw something that I'm pretty sure I'd never seen before...during pushbash, someone would walk next to the pushback tractor holding a wire plugged into a small opening on the side of the plane. This gave the impression that the ground staff were walking the 737-800 on a leash!

What is this about? I'm pretty sure I've never seen that before at any other airport.

 

[NM]

[Mod Hat]
Please note that some posts regarding the 747-400F accident in Afganistan have been moved to the thread discussing that event:

http://www.australianfrequentflyer....eo-yesterdays-747f-crash-emerges-49923-2.html

Posts that are asking a question of pilots remain here while discussions or comments about livery or general in nature (not a question addressed to pilots) have been moved to the other thread.

Please only post questions in this thread, and leave the answers to those qualified to respond (current or ex-pilots, current or ex-ATC, aircraft engineers etc).
[/Mod Hat]