Ask The Pilot

  • Thread starter Thread starter NM
  • Start date Start date
  • Featured
Hot days and performance

We've been having some hot days in Brisbane lately with Amberley getting up to 40C. Is the performance degradation noticeable on the A380 or just another factor to be considered by the iPad?

On a flight from DCA earlier this year on a >38C our aircraft took a lower load of fuel and topped off at Nashville for extra fuel.

Is the A380 ever in this situation or only ever operates from decent sized runways.

Alby
 
Re: Hot days and performance

We've been having some hot days in Brisbane lately with Amberley getting up to 40C. Is the performance degradation noticeable on the A380 or just another factor to be considered by the iPad?

On a flight from DCA earlier this year on a >38C our aircraft took a lower load of fuel and topped off at Nashville for extra fuel.

Is the A380 ever in this situation or only ever operates from decent sized runways.

As it gets hotter, the effect is felt as if you are already at altitude. This is called 'density altitude', and is explained here: Density altitude - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The engines normally have a temperature margin from their maximum, but as the air temperature rises, the margin is eaten up, until you reach the point that max EGT is reached before the normal max RPM limits....which means that the power available is reduced.

As the runway length, and wind conditions are fixed for any given take off, as the temperature rises it will have the effect of reducing the maximum weight available. Most iPad/OIT calculations give us performance limited numbers that are well above the max structural weight. So, in the normal course of events, with the A380, as long as we are operating into the wind, we'll be able to get to max weight. It occasionally becomes limiting though. In Melbourne last year, it was 46º on one occasion, and the wind was a crosswind that was basically at 90º to the runway, but moving around a bit. As we do our calculations on the worst case, that meant that we'd potentially end up with a slight tailwind on either 16 or 34...and according to the laptops that put our actual weight above our performance limited weight...i.e. too heavy to take off. In that case the only solution was to wait for the change to come through, which had the effect of moving the wind slightly to the south, and meant that the calculation no longer required any tailwind.

In the sim the temperature effects can become evident at other times. Practicing a two engined out approach to a really hot Dubai, you'd find that the aircraft would be unable to maintain level flight with the gear down, whereas it's normally just able to manage that...so that makes it important to ensure that you time to gear down section to just prior to intercepting the glideslope.
 
Last edited:
Re: Hot days and performance

Practicing a two engined out approach to a really hot Dubai, you'd find that the aircraft would be unable to maintain level flight with the gear down, whereas it's normally just able to manage that...so that makes it important to ensure that you time to gear down section to just prior to intercepting the glideslope.
How will you know this in the conditions? Is it something that is predicted in flight through calculations or good airmanship?
 
Re: Hot days and performance

Just following on the temperature (dry bulb) impacts on engine and aerodynamic performance. I spend a bit of my time having to roam around psychrometric charts in the course of my work, from that I'm just wondering if humidity also comes in to play with respect to any significant impact on engine or aerodynamic performance. Is the prevailing wet blub temperature / reality humidity advised and factored in for take off calculations (determining say actual air density ?) and if they are to what extent is engine and aerodynamic performance affected ?
 
Last edited:
Re: Hot days and performance

How will you know this in the conditions? Is it something that is predicted in flight through calculations or good airmanship?

Note that I said 'two engined approach'. That's already a major emergency, so we'll be planning to very carefully manage the energy during the approach. Because I know that we can run out of power, I'll be ensuring that the approach only has level segments when we want to decelerate. And it's the reason we practice it in the sim...so that airmanship can be developed by seeing it work (and sometimes not).
 
Australia's highest-earning Velocity Frequent Flyer credit card: Offer expires: 21 Jan 2025
- Earn 60,000 bonus Velocity Points
- Get unlimited Virgin Australia Lounge access
- Enjoy a complimentary return Virgin Australia domestic flight each year

AFF Supporters can remove this and all advertisements

Re: Hot days and performance

Just following on the temperature (dry bulb) impacts on engine and aerodynamic performance. I spend a bit of my time having to roam around psychrometric charts in the course of my work, from that I'm just wondering if humidity also comes in to play with respect to any significant impact on engine or aerodynamic performance. Is the prevailing wet blub temperature / reality humidity advised and factored in for take off calculations (determining say actual air density ?) and if they are to what extent is engine and aerodynamic performance affected ?

Humidity does have a minor effect. So minor that we don't specifically account for it in the performance planning.
 
Re: Hot days and performance

I was sitting in the LAX Hilton the other morning and noticed how much less distance planes needed to land compared with taking off - I knew it was less but I hadn't known how much. This made me think that if a bigger commercial plane had to make an emergency landing at a small airfield it would be possible on the shorter runway but what happens if the runway is too short to take off again? Am sure this has happened. I guess they get an upgrade!
 
Re: Hot days and performance

I was sitting in the LAX Hilton the other morning and noticed how much less distance planes needed to land compared with taking off - I knew it was less but I hadn't known how much. This made me think that if a bigger commercial plane had to make an emergency landing at a small airfield it would be possible on the shorter runway but what happens if the runway is too short to take off again? Am sure this has happened. I guess they get an upgrade!
When you think about it, it's very much like your car. It takes much longer to accelerate to a given speed than it does to stop from the same speed. Basically, the brakes have much more power than an engine(s).

I'm sure what you mention has happened, but I can't think of any particular instances.
 
Re: Hot days and performance

When you think about it, it's very much like your car. It takes much longer to accelerate to a given speed than it does to stop from the same speed. Basically, the brakes have much more power than an engine(s).

I'm sure what you mention has happened, but I can't think of any particular instances.

Here is one from last year

Boeing 747 Dreamlifter lands at wrong airport in Kansas; pilot mixes up north and south

When fully loaded, the Dreamlifter needs a runway 9,199 feet long to take off, reports affiliate KWCH. The Jabara runway is 6,101 feet.
But a spokeswoman for the airport authority, Valerie Wise, cited favorable weather Thursday and the fact that much of the fuel had been used in the flight from JFK -- which lightened the weight of the plane -- for the conclusion that it was safe to take off on the shorter runway. "The engineers have been running calculations all night," she said.
 
Re: Hot days and performance

Here is one from last year

Boeing 747 Dreamlifter lands at wrong airport in Kansas; pilot mixes up north and south

When fully loaded, the Dreamlifter needs a runway 9,199 feet long to take off, reports affiliate KWCH. The Jabara runway is 6,101 feet.
But a spokeswoman for the airport authority, Valerie Wise, cited favorable weather Thursday and the fact that much of the fuel had been used in the flight from JFK -- which lightened the weight of the plane -- for the conclusion that it was safe to take off on the shorter runway. "The engineers have been running calculations all night," she said.

And this famous incident:

Gimli Glider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I believe they flew this out a few days later, zero passengers and minimum fuel.
 
Re: Hot days and performance

When you think about it, it's very much like your car. It takes much longer to accelerate to a given speed than it does to stop from the same speed. Basically, the brakes have much more power than an engine(s).

I'm sure what you mention has happened, but I can't think of any particular instances.

UA 747 into WLG a few years ago. I understand it needed to be stripped to get back out!
 
Re: Hot days and performance

UA 747 into WLG a few years ago. I understand it needed to be stripped to get back out!

A few 747s (not SPs) have been to Wellington over the years. Whilst it's short, it wouldn't require 'stripping' to get it out. 747s have, on rare occasions, even used 34R/16L in Sydney. It isn't comfortable, but, if you're not going far, these big aircraft have excellent power to weight ratios, and probably outperform the domestic aircraft.
 
Re: Hot days and performance

Even the B767?
The QF 767s were all originally purchased for international operations. Take off weights of up to around 180 tonnes were available. Domestic ops would probably rarely exceed 120 tonnes...so the 767 is probably a good example of the excess performance that an international aircraft can have when used locally. Even the 380 gets up and goes on a short ferry.
 
Re: Hot days and performance

JB747, how does the average punter work out if an airline is safe to fly?
take off to landing ratios, previous casualties, age of aircraft, price of ticket, corruption index of government, stability of government and country, ???
 
Re: Hot days and performance

UA 747 into WLG a few years ago. I understand it needed to be stripped to get back out!

A few 747s (not SPs) have been to Wellington over the years. Whilst it's short, it wouldn't require 'stripping' to get it out. 747s have, on rare occasions, even used 34R/16L in Sydney. It isn't comfortable, but, if you're not going far, these big aircraft have excellent power to weight ratios, and probably outperform the domestic aircraft.

The UA 747 was 8th Oct 1991 I believe. Nothing was done to the aircraft and it departed with most of its passengers to AKL. Aside from the regular 747SP OPs, it has seen a 747-200 into there on occasion in NZ colors.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f341/saylittle/scan0006.jpg
 
Re: Hot days and performance

Could a commercial pilot transfer to the military? It seems that a common path is from military to private sector, does it happen the other way around?
 
Re: Hot days and performance

Could a commercial pilot transfer to the military? It seems that a common path is from military to private sector, does it happen the other way around?
It can be done but not always easily and not always with a good outcome.

On my airforce pilots course we had someone with quite a few hours on chipmunk aircraft who did not pass. Great guy but he was not able to relearn 'the military way' and failed in the first 15 hours of flying on the Winjeel.

Later on, one of my first students was a 2000 hr commercial pilot who breezed through a lot of the course and then nearly came unstuck learning limited panel IF. He just could not get his head around it properly. (Became a good C-130 pilot)

As jb747 has said earlier (and mentioned again last Saturday night) the military has a high percentage failure rate because of people who, though they are good pilots, are not able to adapt and/or learn at the required rate. (Rough stats are they take 1% of applicants and then half of those fail.)​
 

Become an AFF member!

Join Australian Frequent Flyer (AFF) for free and unlock insider tips, exclusive deals, and global meetups with 65,000+ frequent flyers.

AFF members can also access our Frequent Flyer Training courses, and upgrade to Fast-track your way to expert traveller status and unlock even more exclusive discounts!

AFF forum abbreviations

Wondering about Y, J or any of the other abbreviations used on our forum?

Check out our guide to common AFF acronyms & abbreviations.
Back
Top