Ask The Pilot

[Flying Fox]

This has already been discussed starting at post 9884

OK thanks. Apologies for the double post.

 

[RailFlyer]

Long haul operations simply don't throw up enough take offs and landings to be giving them to any more people than absolutely necessary. It can be hard enough to keep the Captains and FOs current, without further diluting the number of sectors available

But, I think they'd rightfully be upset at the trite way you write off their qualifications. They do everything in the sim.

Apologies, I wasn't trying to write off their qualifications, more asking whether if they get to practice any "manual flying" or anything other than maintaining the cruise part of the flight. So will a 2nd Officer on a very large jet have ever done a real landing in a plane of that size or is all training on the simulator for that event? I assume they don't get the luxury of doing circuits in an A380 for an afternoon in today's world of cost cutting? Were things different in the past, where either procedures/rules were different and a Captain could decide to occasionally give the S/O a landing on a nice fair weather day to help him/her gain experience? What about where many more plans had crews of more than 2? Obviously a plane with 400/500 people is not a good place to learn to fly but neither is the first time the Captain and F/O both have the fish for dinner and you are on your own. Or is it assumed that the Captain and F/O will never both be incapacitated and the S/O will always have somebody else to fly with them in all foreseeable emergency situations?

 

[flychrisfly]

Hi Pilots

Are there air currents that move in a direction other than horizontal and vertical (in storms, coughulonimbus clouds). Obviously, air moving around topography is a case when this would happen but at altitude does air move at a vertical angle? I suppose it must but I must admit that I had never considered the possibility.

Assuming it is possible, please describe the effects it might have on pitch and angle of attack, and anything else of interest.

Thanks!

 

[jb747]

Apologies, I wasn't trying to write off their qualifications, more asking whether if they get to practice any "manual flying" or anything other than maintaining the cruise part of the flight. So will a 2nd Officer on a very large jet have ever done a real landing in a plane of that size or is all training on the simulator for that event? I assume they don't get the luxury of doing circuits in an A380 for an afternoon in today's world of cost cutting? Were things different in the past, where either procedures/rules were different and a Captain could decide to occasionally give the S/O a landing on a nice fair weather day to help him/her gain experience? What about where many more plans had crews of more than 2? Obviously a plane with 400/500 people is not a good place to learn to fly but neither is the first time the Captain and F/O both have the fish for dinner and you are on your own. Or is it assumed that the Captain and F/O will never both be incapacitated and the S/O will always have somebody else to fly with them in all foreseeable emergency situations?

All training is done in the simulators. Back when I did my FO training (in a 747) we took one to Avalon for 5 hours per student. A few years later on the 767 it was down to 1 hour, and since then zero. The first time I flew an A380 was a normal passenger service. In general, the aircraft is actually easier to fly than the simulator, as there are many more 'cues'.

So, the SOs won't get any landings in the aircraft until their turn for FO training comes up. Nevertheless, they are more than capable of getting the aircraft onto the ground, though they would probably make use of the automatic landing system. It may not be the smoothest landing ever seen, but I have no doubt that it would be perfectly acceptable.

Beyond that though, many of the SOs are far more qualified than you might expect. Many have either heavy or fast experience from the RAAF. Two out of the last four have been A320 Captains!

As for Captains and F/O both becoming ill...it's not all that likely. We really do eat totally different food. Remember too that many flights only have those two. SO's aren't always carried.

 

[jb747]

Are there air currents that move in a direction other than horizontal and vertical (in storms, coughulonimbus clouds).

What other axis could there be?

Obviously, air moving around topography is a case when this would happen but at altitude does air move at a vertical angle? I suppose it must but I must admit that I had never considered the possibility.

Assuming it is possible, please describe the effects it might have on pitch and angle of attack, and anything else of interest.

Probably the situation that fits your question best is 'standing wave' or lee wave which are described here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_wave

They can be quite uncomfortable. The aircraft really does feel like it's going up, then down, with pitch, speed, and power changes.

 

[flychrisfly]

What other axis could there be?

Not sure the wind had to move along an axis. Air can swirl on the horizontal plane - what's to stop a swirl on a vertical plane? Could an air current moving from say an altitude of 1000m to an altitude of 2000m over, say, 5kms.

 

[smeacs]

So, the SOs won't get any landings in the aircraft until their turn for FO training comes up. Nevertheless, they are more than capable of getting the aircraft onto the ground, though they would probably make use of the automatic landing system. It may not be the smoothest landing ever seen, but I have no doubt that it would be perfectly acceptable.

Although the above question was focused around unusual circumstances, in other posts you have mentioned something along the lines of only captains are rated to use some level of the automatic landing system. Does this imply there are a variety of options withing this system? some an SO can use and some they can't ?

 

[jb747]

Not sure the wind had to move along an axis. Air can swirl on the horizontal plane - what's to stop a swirl on a vertical plane? Could an air current moving from say an altitude of 1000m to an altitude of 2000m over, say, 5kms.

You said other than "horizontal and vertical"....which covers pretty well all motion.

The air can move in all planes. It will lead to turbulence of varying levels of magnitude. Generally the strongest vertical motion is seen within clouds (and gives rise to them), or associated with ground features.

 

[jb747]

Although the above question was focused around unusual circumstances, in other posts you have mentioned something along the lines of only captains are rated to use some level of the automatic landing system. Does this imply there are a variety of options withing this system? some an SO can use and some they can't ?

Automatic landings are fairly simple to set up. But, as we generally do them in very low visibility conditions, they are also very procedural, and require very strict monitoring. They also place you in the situation of being very near to the ground, with the automatics still engaged, which means the options for discontinuing the approach are constrained. So, the Captain must be the flying pilot for an automatic landing, and the FO, must be doing the support. But, in the case of an SO (or FO) wanting to use the system after a double field promotion, he's in an emergency, and the rules don't apply.

 

[andmiz]

There's also non-low visibility situations where autolands are strongly recommended by the manufacturer and/or airline, such as after a particularly fatiguing flight, difficult wind conditions, or when the safety of the flight requires a landing to be guaranteed (or as guaranteed as it could be).

 

[mjt57]

Back when I did my FO training (in a 747) we took one to Avalon for 5 hours per student.

I remember back in around 1985 or 86 coming back from Geelong, we watched a 747 take off, fly over the highway, do a turn and land again. It looked quite spectacular. It seemed to just hover there, defying gravity and forces of aerodynamics.

 

[jb747]

I remember back in around 1985 or 86 coming back from Geelong, we watched a 747 take off, fly over the highway, do a turn and land again. It looked quite spectacular. It seemed to just hover there, defying gravity and forces of aerodynamics.

There were lots of fun things done in that training which the airlines would keep well away from now. Low level, high speed circuits probably topped the list (350 KIAS, downwind at 500'). Whilst it was intended to show you 'normal' and let you practice that, it also gave exposure to pretty well the full range of situations that you might see on the line. So, vertical and lateral offsets, engine out, high energy, displaced thresholds...and sometimes a mix of them all. Because of the continuity of the training, you left Avalon with about the best feel for the aircraft that you'd ever have.

 

[D747]

1000 pages and counting! Thanks to all who make this an invaluable resource of information as well as entertaining fun. Special thanks to all the pilots for their time.

 

[mjt57]

There were lots of fun things done in that training which the airlines would keep well away from now. Low level, high speed circuits probably topped the list (350 KIAS, downwind at 500'). Whilst it was intended to show you 'normal' and let you practice that, it also gave exposure to pretty well the full range of situations that you might see on the line. So, vertical and lateral offsets, engine out, high energy, displaced thresholds...and sometimes a mix of them all. Because of the continuity of the training, you left Avalon with about the best feel for the aircraft that you'd ever have.

How well do the simulators replicate all of that?

Thing is, in the sim if you muck up the instructor resets and you go again. In the real thing there is no such option, I suppose. Makes it real in every sense.

 

[Saab34]

On the subject of automation, is it common to have autopilot in use until close to touchdown? I was listening and watching an Asian A330 into 34 Melbourne who disconnected AP at 800ft (could hear the disconnect sound on atc read back)

I noted the AirAsia Sydney incident last year they activated the AP at 300ft on departure too.

Quite amazed at how little hand flying is actually performed on long haul flights.

 

[petercr]

I think that was one of the basic issues that came out of the Asiana accident in SF... too much 'mechnical' flying and not enough hands-on... From the Wikipedia article;

Asiana's automation policy emphasized the full use of all automation and did not encourage manual flight during line operations

 

[Boris spatsky]

I think that was one of the basic issues that came out of the Asiana accident in SF... too much 'mechnical' flying and not enough hands-on... From the Wikipedia article;

That is fairly common. We could only hand fly below 1000 feet for landing in clear conditions. Automation is to be in in most other circumstances. I don't agree with it being so black and white.

 

[jb747]

How well do the simulators replicate all of that?

Thing is, in the sim if you muck up the instructor resets and you go again. In the real thing there is no such option, I suppose. Makes it real in every sense.

That's true enough, but on the other hand the instructors are willing to take much more "risk" with the sim than they ever would with the aircraft. The fidelity of the new sims is so good that there will never be a return to actually doing circuits in the aircraft. There are more cues in the real thing, and that has the effect of making it easier in the aircraft than the sim. A great example would be the 767. Flying it accurately engine out in the sim was quite a handful...but it was quite easy in the actual aircraft.

 

[jb747]

On the subject of automation, is it common to have autopilot in use until close to touchdown? I was listening and watching an Asian A330 into 34 Melbourne who disconnected AP at 800ft (could hear the disconnect sound on atc read back)

I noted the AirAsia Sydney incident last year they activated the AP at 300ft on departure too.

Quite amazed at how little hand flying is actually performed on long haul flights.

Remember that you are invariably dealing with tired pilots, so in general the end of a long haul flight is not the place to be practicing how to fly. A disconnect anywhere from 3000' to about 300' would be quite normal, and is totally up to the pilot. If you averaged it out, I'd expect that most of mine would be around 1000'. I almost always leave it engaged until after the landing checklist is completed.

On departure, in the daylight, VMC case, I'll normally hand fly until about 10,000'. At night or IMC I normally engage it by 500'. In London, for noise reasons, we have to engage it immediately after take off (anywhere from 100').

The company does not require autopilot use. It's up to you to use it sensibly.

 

[Ansett]

JB Thank you for such a great thread and your informative responses. When will the pilots start training for the 787 and how long will it take to gain certification?