Ask The Pilot

[AviatorInsight]

OK, a question. Ever had a landing such as from 9:30 ?

The Space Shuttle program has always interested me, so thanks for that.

As for the landing, of course I’ve definitely had similar to that, however I had the luxury of engine power and got to go around. It’s the reason why they call it the touchdown zone for a reason.

Still, they pulled it up in about 2100m of the available 3000m of runway.

 

[jb747]

No question, but I thought pilots may be interested in this about the Space Shuttle. It’s all interesting, but esp from 9 - 11:30 minutes, I think, re a landing and evolution of their fly-by-wire system.

OK, a question. Ever had a landing such as from 9:30 ?

Poor Fred Haise to be remembered for what looks a coughpy landing, but probably isn’t all that bad. It’s not a bounce, he’s basically skipped back into the air. I haven’t been able to find the NASA reference, but from what I recall there were issues with some lag in the FBW that made a PIO (pilot induced oscillation) too easy to get into.

This was only the fifth (and last) of the captive release flights made by Enterprise, and the second with the drag fairing removed from the engine area. The early three flights had had durations of about 5 minutes. Removing the fairing literally doubled the drag, and reduced the flights to 2 minutes.

We remember Fred from Apollo 13, where he lost his chance at landing after the explosion. The other pilot who commanded these tests (Engle) was also meant to land on Apollo 17, but he lost his place when NASA decided to fly Harrison Schmitt instead. Fred was planned to fly the second orbital flight, but after all of the delays, he ended up leaving NASA before it flew.

Still, they pulled it up in about 2100m of the available 3000m of runway.

That particular runway is at Edwards, and is the better part of 5,000m long.

I travelled to Florida to see a launch, but luck was not with us. We had day spare on the arrival side, and I’d allowed for up to 10 days of delay. It was the only shuttle flight to ever launch early, so we missed out. Landing was then supposed to be the day before we departed, but was waved off until too late.

 

[straitman]

We were in Orlando one time and heard and felt a launch from 50 miles away. Couldn’t see anything as it was thick fog.

 

[albatross710]

regarding the shuttle's automated landing software mentioned in the video I recall reading on a Smithsonian visit that development of that feature was discontinued.

It was discontinued because the pilots were unlikely to use it when they were on the flight of their lifetime and were going to hand fly the landings.

 

[AviatorInsight]

That particular runway is at Edwards, and is the better part of 5,000m long.

Sure. No idea who the guy commentating is, but he mentions they were only ”allotted 10,000ft for this demonstration”? I wonder how true that was?

 

[straitman]

Sure. No idea who the guy commentating is, but he mentions they were only ”allotted 10,000ft for this demonstration”? I wonder how true that was?

Which would leave then roughly 1000m under run & 1000m over run.

 

[jb747]

regarding the shuttle's automated landing software mentioned in the video I recall reading on a Smithsonian visit that development of that feature was discontinued.

It was discontinued because the pilots were unlikely to use it when they were on the flight of their lifetime and were going to hand fly the landings.

There is some discussion of the automatic system in this article:

Jack R. Lousma Oral History

Jack Lousma was the commander of the 3rd shuttle flight, and had previously flown with Fred Haise in the landing tests, and also on the second Apollo/Skylab mission with Alan Bean.

 

[flyer89]

It’s comforting to know that my colorful language during some of my landings mirror that of a legend like Fred Haise during the ALT-5 landing…

 

[flyer89]

I travelled to Florida to see a launch, but luck was not with us. We had day spare on the arrival side, and I’d allowed for up to 10 days of delay. It was the only shuttle flight to ever launch early, so we missed out. Landing was then supposed to be the day before we departed, but was waved off until too late.

The closest I have gotten is standing underneath Endeavour at the California Science Center. As a ‘shuttle kid’ just being in its presence was both surreal and special.

 

[jb747]

The closest I have gotten is standing underneath Endeavour at the California Science Center. As a ‘shuttle kid’ just being in its presence was both surreal and special.

We saw Discovery being moved into the VAB for stacking, but obviously from a distance.

I had a trip planned and ticketed for 2020, where I was going to see all of the shuttles, but that was cancelled, and I've given up on the idea now.

 

[mjt57]

I travelled to Florida to see a launch, but luck was not with us.

1991, was in Florida and got to watch one of them launch. Totally spectactular, even from 30 miles away. Half of America was there, I'm sure of it, due to it being school holidays at the time (had the kids and took them to the tourist traps in Orlando).
The noise that it made sounded like a million, no, make that a gazillion crackers going off.

 

[D747]

Can the pilots comment on this please?

Qatar Airways Boeing 787 loses up to 1,000 feet of altitude on take-off - AeroTime

 

[serfty]

Can the pilots comment on this please?

Qatar Airways Boeing 787 loses up to 1,000 feet of altitude on take-off - AeroTime

See here:

Interesting event on FR24, QR out of Doha.

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/qatar-airways-flight-787-loses-height-after-take-off/ Historically, this sort of thing is often on the first paragraph of the accident report.

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

 

[D747]

See here:

Interesting event on FR24, QR out of Doha.

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/qatar-airways-flight-787-loses-height-after-take-off/ Historically, this sort of thing is often on the first paragraph of the accident report.

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

Thanks Serfty!

 

[RooFlyer]

What's the current standard (if that's the word) on Flight Data and coughpit Voice Recorders?

* Do they record over multiple flights or 'reset' each flight? Multiple days?

* Do they stream live to any base or can airlines arrange this (I'm thinking of the Qantas Ops centre when I think they can read many performance indicators live). In areas of 'out of range', is data buffered and sent as a burst on re-acquisition?

* Significant differences between Boeing and Airbus?

Prompted by the QR incident, where some poor performance wasn't notified until later and the Recorders may have reset and wiped the flight in question. Also wonder if anything changed after MH370 wrt live monitoring.

 

[jb747]

What's the current standard (if that's the word) on Flight Data and coughpit Voice Recorders?

* Do they record over multiple flights or 'reset' each flight? Multiple days?

Flight data recorders will record as long as they can, so they'll have multiple flights on them. Their contents are not available at all unless there has been an accident/incident. They do not transmit data. CVRs are more or less the same, but their contents can be deleted at the end of a flight. I haven't seen anyone actually do that in decades.

QARs...quick access recorders are company assets. They are not crash protected. Companies download their contents as they wish. From what I recall they held multiple LR flights. They were the devices that would flag any performance issues (i.e. company rules), but they didn't ring home at the time. That was for later, when the data was downloaded.

* Do they stream live to any base or can airlines arrange this (I'm thinking of the Qantas Ops centre when I think they can read many performance indicators live). In areas of 'out of range', is data buffered and sent as a burst on re-acquisition?

No they don't stream as such, but the companies can access some of the data that is being sent around the aircraft busses. This is engineering data, not flight/performance data. They don't look unless the aircraft systems flag it themselves. This might sometimes generate a warning in the coughpit, but there were many other items that were irrelevant to the crew, but engineering would need to know.

* Significant differences between Boeing and Airbus?

Well, the Airbus I flew was smart, and the Boeings pretty dumb.

Prompted by the QR incident, where some poor performance wasn't notified until later and the Recorders may have reset and wiped the flight in question.

Flight recorders perhaps, but the companies don't have access to their contents. QAR would have flagged any issues, and the data would still exist.

Also wonder if anything changed after MH370 wrt live monitoring.

Nothing yet, as far as I know. I doubt that the cost equation makes sense.

 

[Saab34]

AV, how often do you kick people off for being non compliant or just idiots? Had one last week and another late last year, seems to be a growing trend.

Are the AFP helpful in such situations?

 

[AviatorInsight]

AV, how often do you kick people off for being non compliant or just idiots? Had one last week and another late last year, seems to be a growing trend.

Are the AFP helpful in such situations?

Personally, the last time I had AFP come to the aircraft was during Covid when borders closed mid flight.

However I have seen and read of it becoming more of a problem lately. Anytime the AFP need get called, our own security team also get involved and take up the issue with the AFP once the passenger is off the aircraft.

But to answer your question, yes they are very helpful but are still respectful of the authority of the captain while on board the aircraft.

 

[RooFlyer]

But to answer your question, yes they are very helpful but are still respectful of the authority of the captain while on board the aircraft.

If you disagree with the AFP, I mean really disagree with something say they want to do, who legally hold sway?

 

[AviatorInsight]

If you disagree with the AFP, I mean really disagree with something say they want to do, who legally hold sway?

It depends on the issue, but here’s what happened on this particular flight.

So we had this issue during covid where the borders closed mid flight (what a tremendous time…but I digress), anyway, when we landed the passenger wasn’t allowed into the state and they started becoming hysterical.

The AFP were trying to force this passenger onto the return flight and they were not having a bar of it. The cabin crew came up to us and the cabin manager was not happy to take this passenger back with us for fear of what they could do inflight (they were very upset).

We then had this Mexican stand off with the AFP in the aerobridge. They didn’t come onto the aircraft at all. We got in touch with our security team who must have made some calls and the AFP backed down about a minute later and took the passenger back into the terminal.

The regulations allow the pilot in command to direct a person to leave the aircraft before the flight begins. End of story.