ATO (tax office) payments by credit card

[medhead]

Well I didn't raise the question but I found it a little confusing too, you have a problem with the word accidentally but also seem to take exception to the suggestion that it might be deliberate.

In defense of myself on the last point, I would point out I'm not raising doubts about AFF members properly meeting their responsibilities as taxpayers because there is in fact no legal requirement not to overpay your tax. However the concept of overpayment has been discussed quite a lot recently and the fact that some have seen fit to point out that their's was accidental (or not deliberate or other form of words you'd prefer) indicates at least some consider like me that some also might be considering overpayment as a deliberate tactic. Are people doing it, I have no clue but I suspect some are considering, hence my suggestion that the fee might not be deductable in this instance.

That would explain the confusion. I've take the use of the word accidentally in this thread to be a euphemism for deliberately, on purpose.

The rest of it was my view if the correct terminology. I don't believe accidentally should be used either as a euphemism or with its formal meaning. Someone paying according to their self assessment is not an accident. It is what they intended to do based on the best knowledge available to them.

 

[burmans]

That would explain the confusion. I've take the use of the word accidentally in this thread to be a euphemism for deliberately, on purpose.

The rest of it was my view if the correct terminology. I don't believe accidentally should be used either as a euphemism or with its formal meaning. Someone paying according to their self assessment is not an accident. It is what they intended to do based on the best knowledge available to them.

Ah yes, you mean "accidentally", I now comprehend!

 

[medhead]

Ah yes, you mean "accidentally", I now comprehend!

My post is edited accordingly.

 

[Jack_OC]

Yes, .... but.... they would twitch to the odd occasions of issuing a refund (or two, or ... many).

Oh your concern is that the ATO will have a problem with it? Possibly they would, although it's no skin off their nose so I'm not sure they'd care. Personally I try not to draw the ATO's attention to myself though, so I won't be putting it to the test! My only experience of a refund was when I got hit with GIC, paid it, and then they agreed to waive it. That was a nice bonus - and completely above board!

 

[amaroo]

Yes, .... but.... they would twitch to the odd occasions of issuing a refund (or two, or ... many).

The ATO like to create work for other entities/citizens. They don't like work created for them. [-]Abuse[/-] accidents will lead to change which will no doubt lead to disappointment...

 

[medhead]

The ATO like to create work for other entities/citizens. They don't like work created for them. [-]Abuse[/-] accidents will lead to change which will no doubt lead to disappointment...

Bit of a difficult conclusion to support. It is a self assessment system. If they want to change the system away from self assessment that means the ATO takes on more work. Refer to your first sentence for the likelihood of that happening.

 

[amaroo]

Bit of a difficult conclusion to support. It is a self assessment system. If they want to change the system away from self assessment that means the ATO takes on more work. Refer to your first sentence for the likelihood of that happening.

Replace the word accident with abuse......

 

[medhead]

Replace the word accident with abuse......

Doing so makes no difference to my assessment. As you said the tax office likes to make work for others. Self assessment means we're all doing the work. If the ATO are not happy with self assessment that means they would have to do more work. They've got their money and they're not doing the work. Why would they change that to take on more work, as per your first sentence.

 

[legroom]

AFAIK, issuing a refund is work.

I am not aware of an automatic refund process anywhere.

Lots of "accidents" lead to more such work and someone may decide to do something called "enhancement" to what we now know.

Unlike some others, I know my view could be incorrect.

 

[burmans]

The ATO like to create work for other entities/citizens. They don't like work created for them. [-]Abuse[/-] accidents will lead to change which will no doubt lead to disappointment...

The self assessment system isn't just there because the ATO support it, it was instituted by government and forms law. Anyone familiar with law reform would know that a government agency can't change the law because they feel like it.

From the last review of the law (2004) it took until 2007 for some of the recommendations to make it to law (and then only some). I've been working recently on a Privacy Project, it took them 25 years to update that law despite complaints from virtually day 1.

 

[amaroo]

Doing so makes no difference to my assessment. As you said the tax office likes to make work for others. Self assessment means we're all doing the work. If the ATO are not happy with self assessment that means they would have to do more work. They've got their money and they're not doing the work. Why would they change that to take on more work, as per your first sentence.

You miss the point. Deliberate overpayments create work for the ATO. Someone has to review, approve and issue the refund....a timeline for this internal procedure has been quoted at around 2-3 months.

I doubt the ATO exists so that it can "clip the ticket" in a rinse and recycle gaming transaction that provides first class travel to exotic destinations at < $0.01 a point.

 

[burmans]

I am not aware of an automatic refund process anywhere.

I've had a refund in the past after there had been a credit balance over about a month that I didnt ever ask for (the refund). On the basis that ATO wouldnt do work without being asked my assumption was that this was automatically generated!

 

[burmans]

You miss the point. Deliberate overpayments create work for the ATO. Someone has to review, approve and issue the refund....a timeline for this internal procedure has been quoted at around 2-3 months.

I doubt the ATO exists so that it can "clip the ticket" in a rinse and recycle gaming transaction that provides first class travel to exotic destinations at < $0.01 a point.

I think you statement here contains the answer to your own question. The ATO has to comply with the law and the law by having a system for self assessment (estimation) must have processes for both underpayment and overpayment based on those estimates. the ATO can't choose whether they comply with law.

Similarly there is a legal right to get your money back if overpaid, the ATO can't not pay you back because they dont like it.

What they can do however is
- offset that payment against other debts
- hold back the payment if you havent lodged activity statements
- hold onto the payment until you ask for it
- generally take their time

I think it's more likely they will muck you around than not eventually pay you!

 

[Deleted User]

The golden goose hey...

[FLAME SUIT]
The goose will not live forever, an enhancement can and will occur at anytime or sometime in the future, is it not then advisable to take best advantage of said goose until it's enhanced...?
[/FLAME SUIT]

I cant stop you from doing it
You cant stop me
I know you might be doing it
Then so should thee

 

[Jack_OC]

I've had a refund in the past after there had been a credit balance over about a month that I didnt ever ask for (the refund). On the basis that ATO wouldnt do work without being asked my assumption was that this was automatically generated!

Yeah, in my case I called the ATO to ask what would happen and the person I spoke to specifically said the surplus would "automatically" be refunded. Whether she literally meant automatic, or just that I didn't have to request the refund, I'm not sure. And I suppose I did create work for them by phoning up with my question

 

[amaroo]

I think you statement here contains the answer to your own question. The ATO has to comply with the law and the law by having a system for self assessment (estimation) must have processes for both underpayment and overpayment based on those estimates. the ATO can't choose whether they comply with law.

Similarly there is a legal right to get your money back if overpaid, the ATO can't not pay you back because they dont like it.

What they can do however is
- offset that payment against other debts
- hold back the payment if you havent lodged activity statements
- hold onto the payment until you ask for it
- generally take their time

I think it's more likely they will muck you around than not eventually pay you!

What is being discussed is the deliberate overpayment of tax so that cheap and easy frequent flyer points can be collected. No different to any other technic used to game the system.....once a system is gamed, abused and discovered - it's shut down.

It has nothing to do with self assessment! Other than your bog standard self assessment - I can do it, so why not...

 

[cove]

The only reason I had two nice cheques back was caused by quarterly instalments exceeding the tax assessed for the year on two accounts. I don't need to bother overpaying.
On the other hand if you short paid the BAS they would be more interested in you.....

 

[legroom]

I've had a refund in the past after there had been a credit balance over about a month that I didnt ever ask for (the refund). On the basis that ATO wouldnt do work without being asked my assumption was that this was automatically generated!

You really believe that because you (and I) did not request the refund, the direct crediting (or cheque) is an automatic process ????

Which branch of government would "give out / return" money without an elaborate process of check, double check and then signing off by some managers ?

I doubt that it exists.

Sure, the positive balance in your (tax) AC will flag it to someone but to label the process of refund "automatic" just simply because we did not ask is doubtful in truth IMO.

FWIW, I got $30 interests as well.

Presumably, that was automatic, too.

 

[burmans]

What is being discussed is the deliberate overpayment of tax so that cheap and easy frequent flyer points can be collected. No different to any other technic used to game the system.....once a system is gamed, abused and discovered - it's shut down.

It has nothing to do with self assessment! Other than your bog standard self assessment - I can do it, so why not...

Actually I understand your argument totally, what I dont understand is how the ATO can shut this down when nothing that has been suggested here is against the law. Overestimation and subsequent overpayment of tax is not against the law (in fact there are specific clause in the law to cater for this), requesting refunds is not against the law, ATO declining to give you your money back when the law allows would be.

So getting past the fact you think the ATO would want to shut this down, how do you actually think they would achieve this without breaking the law?

 

[amaroo]

Actually I understand your argument totally, what I dont understand is how the ATO can shut this down when nothing that has been suggested here is against the law. Overestimation and subsequent overpayment of tax is not against the law (in fact there are specific clause in the law to cater for this), requesting refunds is not against the law, ATO declining to give you your money back when the law allows would be.

So getting past the fact you think the ATO would want to shut this down, how do you actually think they would achieve this without breaking the law?

It's so obvious it doesn't need to be mentioned.