Australian Housing Affordability Discussion

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In six weeks AUSTRALIA has roughly “six weeks” to prevent a housing market collapse caused by the banks’ crackdown on foreign investor lending, a US defence think tank has said.
Where do they get this all from.

One article talks it up another down with the same conviction on the same day ......

Any market, Housing market included - has a lot of value attached through ones confidence in it - a lot has happened this year to put a lot of water on the confidence in the Australian market to Chinese investors - and once they turn off the idea that investing in Australia is a good idea, nothing is going to turn them back on in a hurry - and walking away from settling the thousands of contracts on apartments waiting for completion and settlement.

I think they get 6 weeks from the fact the 1st October is in 3 weeks, and 3 weeks after that the horse might have bolted in confidence.

One needs to understand this is not new news, and for those who have not read about it prior - here roughly is what is going on:

Chinese foreign investors need to buy new in Australia - many are attracted to Apartments in the CBD's - and buy them off the plans. Many come here and sign up for apartments off the plan, with most to settle 2 years later upon completion, so in 2014 you had Chinese coming here and signed up for apartments off the plan to settle in 2016, some came in 2015 and did deals to settle 2017, and some early 2016 to settle in 2018.

When they came to sign up for the apartments, that have not yet been finished, in the past two years, they had a vague acceptance of getting 90% finance from a/the banks - and required a 10% deposit. So lets say $400k apartment, so they pulled $40k out from China to put down at the time of signing, and let it be thinking they didn't have to worry until setting day as the bank would finance the other 90%.

What has happened - is this year the Australian Banks have pulled the carpet of any foreign investor into property - requiring more paperwork - as they have found 80% (off top of my head what I have read) of loans given to Chinese in the past are on bogus papers and often to a person that does not exist - as they don't want to look silly when the China bubble bursts (China is a whole other ball game). But this aspect is not that hard for most Chinese, just is a few more hours work.

But the main thing the banks also did this year, is move all lending to qualifying overseas investors to being 50%, down from 90% previously. So for Mr. Wong who signed up for an apartment back in 2014, which is settling tomorrow - instead of having to have the $40k (10%), he now needs 50%, aka $200k - so is needing to find another $160k somehow.

In theory this isn't an issue, as he has this available to him in China.............. however China has restricted the ability to take cash out of China for investment to $50k PA per person, so Mr. Wong cannot get his $160k out of China right now to settle his new apartment. This has a lot of Chinese borrowing through 2nd and 3rd tier lenders to get this 50% deposit requirement of settlement - and most but not all settlements have been happening this year - with the balance of them going onto the market and clearing as if they are mana from heaven because normally you have to wait 2 years to buy a new apartment off the plans.

And then 1st October, will see State Governments of QLD add 3%, NSW 4%, and VIC move from 3% to 7% extra property transaction tax over and above all other taxes. Another needle that might break the camels back. So Mr. Wong needs say another 4% to cover this extra tax if he is to settle next month - that is $16k on his $400k apartment.

Also there is word that the 2nd and 3rd tier lenders who have stepped in so far this year, cannot continue. So deals coming up for settlement will simply fall over as there is no options for them to settle. Once there is too much inventory trying to be cleared in the market, and people take losses on them and prices come down, more and more Chinese will walk away from current deals and their 10% deposit as that is the cheaper option for them. Well that is the theory anyway.


And why are Chinese investing in Australia + NZ & Vancouver property? And why under bogus names? Because they know the Chinese bubble will burst at some point. So Dad in China is borrowing and leveraging himself up as much as he can, and getting what he can out of China (why China has put the $50k limit in), to invest outside of China as an insurance to the crash that will happen in China. But Dad in China doesn't want it in his name, as he is expecting to default on everything in China, so he is putting it in a bogus name in Australia, or if he is forced to put in a name, his son's or daughters name. His hope is when it goes to custard in China, he has a nest egg outside of China that he can escape China to if and when things so south - and if they don't go south, they hope and expect the value of their overseas investment to continue to increase and more than cover itself in capital gains for the interest paid on debt. It is their bet both ways.
 
This sounds like a Ponzi scheme about to burst. How is it possible to con so many people?
 
This sounds like a Ponzi scheme about to burst. How is it possible to con so many people?
Not sure I'd describe this as a con. 90% finance was very real at the time but like everything things can and do change over time. The problem here, is purely and simply that this is speculation and like all speculation things can get very messy when circumstances change.

Anyone who gets into speculation without understanding the risks is in my opinion responsible for their own demise, its far too easy to blame others.
 
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And then 1st October, will see State Governments of QLD add 3%, NSW 4%, and VIC move from 3% to 7% extra property transaction tax over and above all other taxes. Another needle that might break the camels back. So Mr. Wong needs say another 4% to cover this extra tax if he is to settle next month - that is $16k on his $400k apartment.

For Clarity - this is a "Foreign Buyers tax" - a new tax that is only applicable as a one off at the time of purchase to foreign buyers of property in QLD, NSW, & VIC. Not applicable to you and me if we rolled up to buy the same properties as residents & citizens.

In reflecting on the article - I recon it is more to do with them indirectly lobbying the state governments to scrap the new taxes from 1st October so it doesn't blow up sooner than it otherwise is going to, and not be as messy as it is going to get.
 
This sounds like a Ponzi scheme about to burst. How is it possible to con so many people?

Not really a Ponzi Scheme - more a bubble - and a bubble that in Frequent Flier terms, has rolled well over the arm rest, over our leg, and sitting covering our groin.

Most of my Chinese Friends are doing it tough leveraged to their teeth, or already have gone bankrupt through the share market crash last year in China - all through decisions they made against my advice when they have told me over the past 6 or so years what they are up to. I have one who is trying to get ahead of it by trying to buy his 5th apartment within China right now........ He lives between the two of them, and other two sit vacant - all fueled by capital gains & debt. I have another friend who works in the loan shark section of a Chinese bank, and talk to them weekly about defaults and lending policy that they work under.

Chinese have not known hard times for many decades, and have only ever seen property prices increase. As long as property prices are increasing, they will continue to fuel it by buying more and at higher prices. The concept of property prices falling is so foreign to them - that they brush it off. And so they continue to buy.

But then stats and data come along like it has in the past 12 months, that you cannot dismiss it as anything but a bubble - like China has more debt now than the USA had prior to its crash - three months ago there were more than 6 Local Councils in China issuing 3 year bonds at 42% PA to get funds, not to invest in infrastructure, but to cover interest on its loans, and is the only way it could raise funds to do so, that you cannot dismiss. The big one for me, is the Chinese Government reserve is not sufficient now to bail out the country when things go bang - and that most new debt created in China now is to service interest on old debt.

Most Chinese property investors in Australia are diversifying their risk in their minds, others think they are in heaven buying property here that is 1/3rd the price for like in China.

When will the China bubble burst? I honestly don't know. The government has time on its side while there is still some confidence in it - has some leavers to pull to drag it out somewhat further - but could at any time allow the inevitable bubble to pop. But I doubt the Government of China will allow it to pop freely and fight tooth and nail to avoid that. As Chinese Government have the mandate of a communist country - that the people will leave the government alone, as long as there is full employment. So the Government does everything it can to achieve full employment - including building ghost towns and keeping zombie companies operational producing products no one wants to buy. When the Chinese bubble bursts, the Chinese people will riot.

So I sit back with popcorn in hand, watching with interest.

I just know that Chinese investors into Australian property, sing a very different economical tune than what we do. And if the government didn't have the "must buy new" restrictions in place in Australia on foreign investors - Australia would be is a far worse bubble than Vancouver or Auckland are in right now.
 
This sounds like a Ponzi scheme about to burst. How is it possible to con so many people?

Was near the shine of remembrance last weekend. I noticed a real estate agent office in one building. All the apartments advertised were advertised in Chinese.
 
Was near the shine of remembrance last weekend. I noticed a real estate agent office in one building. All the apartments advertised were advertised in Chinese.

How about a newspaper in China advertising apartments in..........drum roll........Hurstville.
 
And prices keep going up in Melbourne and Sydney.

That rate of growth quarter on quarter is spiking up 5.8 per cent and 5.9 per cent respectively, according to data from the organisation that monitors these movements, CoreLogic.

Already, housing affordability is stretched and thanks to an extended four years of extreme price rises, first home buyers now make up a record low 10 per cent of demand for mortgages. Only six years ago, that figure was around one-third.

The house price souffle is rising again
 
According to Macro Economics there are rising numbers of defaults on newly constructed apartments in both Sydney and Melbourne.
I did two years of a valuation course so I have remained interested in property valuations and rental returns. What is going on in home sales right now will probably only get fixed by a recession we may have to have.
Quite a few adult children must be considering a move back in with their parents.
 
it amazes me that a country the size of australia combined with a minuscule population has been able to make land scarce.

quite likely the income recession due to the falling terms of trade will eventually pop the housing market.

i pity the people who have got debt up to their necks and are madly treading water hoping to keep from drowning.

i don't think people realise what a long hard slog the massive mortgages will be in a low inflation low interest rate environment. much easier to pay a house off when inflation is high, pay rises beat CPI, and mortgages were just 2 or 3 times household income.

my feeling is that the second half of 2017 is when things start to take a nasty turn in australia. the car manufacturing job loses will have taken their toll, the resi construction boom will be slowing down, the gas LNG projects will be nearly finished leading to tens of thousands of construction workers being replaced with a few hundred operational staff, and there wont be anything to pick up the slack in the economy unless the Govt ramps up debt to invest in infrastructure, and I'm not confident they'd pick truly economic projects to invest in that will be self liquidating due to increased economic growth.

just need to look to Texas to see what sensible zoning laws, along with providing access to debt to fund infrastructure for new housing estates can achieve in terms of minimising house price growth. Consider that texas had the same population growth as Australia over the last 15 years and currently has over 26M people in the state, then be amazed that it still has the majority of it's housing in the affordable 3 times household income range.
 
House prices from 1988. These two homes (Essendon + Eltham) probably worth over a million now.

bAW1skY.jpg
 
While I have plenty of concerns about housing affordability (as it is affecting many of my friends and will certainly affect my children), I don't understand why these reports always talk about buying a median home. Surely most people start on the lowest quartile?
 
.... I don't understand why these reports always talk about buying a median home. Surely most people start on the lowest quartile?
The cheapest housing is often in the less desired areas. If you want to start in real estate this is where to start and work your way up.

Any decent $200,000 apartments in Hobart or is that too low? Feel like getting back in investment game.
 
House prices from 1988. These two homes (Essendon + Eltham) probably worth over a million now.

Would hope so, if you'd sold that property for $145,000 and put the cash in the bank in 1988, and in 1991 invested the $190,000 or so you had by then into CBA shares.... those shares would be now worth $2.5m....
 
The cheapest housing is often in the less desired areas. If you want to start in real estate this is where to start and work your way up.

Any decent $200,000 apartments in Hobart or is that too low? Feel like getting back in investment game.

You will find most apartment prices across Australia are stagnating or decreasing. If you are really game with an apartment, find an area with a good school zone all the Chinese are investing in. Do note, banks are tightening up.

Ray White Balwyn director Helen Yan expects less activity this Golden Week compared with last year, largely due to banks’ tightened criteria for home loans to foreigners. Biggin and Scott Glen Waverley’s Ming Xu said a Chinese investor-visa holder paid nearly $1 million in cash for a Glen Waverley property a fortnight ago.

http://www.domain.com.au/news/chine...to-melbourne-for-golden-week-20160929-grq24m/
 
Would hope so, if you'd sold that property for $145,000 and put the cash in the bank in 1988, and in 1991 invested the $190,000 or so you had by then into CBA shares.... those shares would be now worth $2.5m....

Not every stock offering is good as CBA OR CSL.
 
While I have plenty of concerns about housing affordability (as it is affecting many of my friends and will certainly affect my children), I don't understand why these reports always talk about buying a median home. Surely most people start on the lowest quartile?

Just over 1 in 3 properties sells for under $400K in Australia

The median household income was 91k in 2014. The average was $104K

3 times household income is considered the borderline for affordable housing. You'd be hard pressed to find that anywhere with a decent job market.

http://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2015/sep/pdf/bu-0915-3.pdf

just look at the house price inflation compared to CPI and cost of building.

rba house price growth.JPG

it's all land inflation. the typical lot cost in sydney is $422K

land per sqm.jpg

unlesss you think capital growth can continue rising faster than incomes, why would you want to invest in housing? the net yield is atrocious. i'd prefer say the SYD Airport 2030 inflation linked bond providing around 4% + CPI yield
 
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