Australian Reports of the Virus Spread

[HappyFlyerFamily]

In the news tonight we had the head of the Nurses Assn claiming 1 in 10 members didn't want the jab, and railing against the compulsory requirement.

I think the survey of NSW State teachers conducted recently also showed a 10% refusal.

Looks like there will be a court case to go a long way to deciding this in NSW.

Court to hear mandatory vaccine challenge

A legal challenge to mandatory COVID-19 vaccine requirements for some NSW workers has been launched in the state's highest court, as virus infections continue to climb by more than a thousand cases per day.Sydney solicitor Tony Nikolic on Wednesday filed the suit against Health Minister Brad...

au.news.yahoo.com

 

[moa999]

Which news?

Think 7

 

[Seat0B]

In the news tonight we had the head of the Nurses Assn claiming 1 in 10 members didn't want the jab, and railing against the compulsory requirement.

Yes I have a friend who is a nurse (although not working as a nurse atm) and she is vehemently anti-vax, which I find super surprising. Absolutely will not be swayed in her views. It is a real strain ion the friendship espec as she tries to garner my support for her refusal every time we talk.

 

[MARTINE]

Yes I have a friend who is a nurse (although not working as a nurse atm) and she is vehemently anti-vax, which I find super surprising. Absolutely will not be swayed in her views. It is a real strain ion the friendship espec as she tries to garner my support for her refusal every time we talk.

I don’t want care from people who cannot understand basic infection control principles especially in a pandemic

 

[straitman]

Yes I have a friend who is a nurse (although not working as a nurse atm) and she is vehemently anti-vax, which I find super surprising. Absolutely will not be swayed in her views. It is a real strain ion the friendship espec as she tries to garner my support for her refusal every time we talk.

Does she off any explanation as to why she is so anti-vax?

 

[drron]

Yes, but imagine the screeching if the government didn't act on ATAGI advice. That's an unfair criticism.

I'm sure you can remember the protest of the QLD premier and CHO for the PM merely suggesting people under 60 could get AZ if they saw their GP.

Clearly the advice was terrible advice, and was about taking a zero risk approach for ATAGI and not the lowest risk overall for the country as a whole.

I'm sorry that is wrong as it wasn't terrible advice.This is not a personal attack because several on here have no idea why ATAGI exists.It has many roles.The covid vaccines are the most recent and newsworthy.
Let's be clear ATAGI never banned the use of AZ in people of any age.They do strongly suggest that people with a few rare clotting disorders do not have the AZ vaccine.And in the recommendation for limiting the age groups for AZ they did stress that this was due to a risk benefit assessment and if the incidence of covid rose that the recommendation would change.

So the problem isn't ATAGI but the messengers who on this occasion should be the ones shot.Now the politicians,probably out of ignorance,didn't stress that this advice was because there were very few covid cases and would change if the numbers increased.
The press however were the ringleaders in demonising AZ both out of ignorance and the public's perceived preference for negative news.They really need to be held to account for their role in jeopardising the vaccine roll out.

However there are people who should have known better.Who knew they could pick up the phone and talk to ATAGI members to get the full story.But they didn't and their behaviour borders on negligence.And yes the ringleader here is the QLD CHO.

As some are aware I work at the same hospital as an ATAGI board member and have had several discussions on the subject of the AZ vaccine.At least one person knows that their advice is strongly on the side of using AZ even in people that have one of the more common clotting factors that can be used as a reason not to use AZ.At our Grand rounds yesterday the subject was VITT so again it was mentioned there.The recommendation against those clotting disorders in using AZ was made only in the interests of caution.

So as of now there have been 116 proven or possible cases of VITT in Australia with 6 deaths.Some of the first cases were given treatments that actually worsened the condition.That doesn't happen now.

For some background the purpose of ATAGI and current members are here.

Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI)

The Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) advises the Minister for Health and Aged Care on the National Immunisation Program (NIP) and other immunisation issues.

www.health.gov.au

And if you wish to see their terms of reference they can be downloaded here.

ATAGI terms of reference

The terms of reference for the Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI).

www.health.gov.au

 

[MARTINE]

I'm sorry that is wrong as it wasn't terrible advice.This is not a personal attack because several on here have no idea why ATAGI exists.It has many roles.The covid vaccines are the most recent and newsworthy.
Let's be clear ATAGI never banned the use of AZ in people of any age.They do strongly suggest that people with a few rare clotting disorders do not have the AZ vaccine.And in the recommendation for limiting the age groups for AZ they did stress that this was due to a risk benefit assessment and if the incidence of covid rose that the recommendation would change.

So the problem isn't ATAGI but the messengers who on this occasion should be the ones shot.Now the politicians,probably out of ignorance,didn't stress that this advice was because there were very few covid cases and would change if the numbers increased.
The press however were the ringleaders in demonising AZ both out of ignorance and the public's perceived preference for negative news.They really need to be held to account for their role in jeopardising the vaccine roll out.

However there are people who should have known better.Who knew they could pick up the phone and talk to ATAGI members to get the full story.But they didn't and their behaviour borders on negligence.And yes the ringleader here is the QLD CHO.

As some are aware I work at the same hospital as an ATAGI board member and have had several discussions on the subject of the AZ vaccine.At least one person knows that their advice is strongly on the side of using AZ even in people that have one of the more common clotting factors that can be used as a reason not to use AZ.At our Grand rounds yesterday the subject was VITT so again it was mentioned there.The recommendation against those clotting disorders in using AZ was made only in the interests of caution.

So as of now there have been 116 proven or possible cases of VITT in Australia with 6 deaths.Some of the first cases were given treatments that actually worsened the condition.That doesn't happen now.

For some background the purpose of ATAGI and current members are here.

Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI)

The Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) advises the Minister for Health and Aged Care on the National Immunisation Program (NIP) and other immunisation issues.

www.health.gov.au

And if you wish to see their terms of reference they can be downloaded here.

ATAGI terms of reference

The terms of reference for the Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI).

www.health.gov.au

Yes - the words ‘preferred’ in younger group were incorrectly interpreted as ‘must not give’ which is not the same.
Sadly good risk communication principles and political agendas don’t mix

Post automatically merged: Sep 1, 2021

Yes - the words ‘preferred’ in younger group were incorrectly interpreted as ‘must not give’ which is not the same.
Sadly good risk communication principles and political agendas don’t mix

Clarity -Pfizer ‘preferred’ does not equal AZ ‘do not give’

 

[burmans]

I don’t want care from people who cannot understand basic infection control principles especially in a pandemic

That’s just possibly why she’s not working as a nurse ATM!

 

[N860CR]

I've known a lot of (often interesting) people who do stupid things. If they do come into trouble, it cause sadness to those who know them (while usually recognising that it is their nature that led to their problems)

Certainly not disagreeing with you there. The difference is, we don’t have the premier telling the public via a daily press conference that it was a “tragedy”. The narrative is the problem.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Yes I have a friend who is a nurse (although not working as a nurse atm) and she is vehemently anti-vax, which I find super surprising. Absolutely will not be swayed in her views. It is a real strain ion the friendship espec as she tries to garner my support for her refusal every time we talk.

Anti-vax is not isolated and will be probably appear in a cross-section of healthcare, being a cross-section of society.

I'm guessing you just try to talk about something else.

I don’t want care from people who cannot understand basic infection control principles especially in a pandemic

I'm guessing you are not talking about how to use PPE properly.

Until mandatory vaccination is implemented (I think so far only NSW public and private hospitals has a plan), you won't have a choice.

 

[justinbrett]

I'm sorry that is wrong as it wasn't terrible advice.This is not a personal attack because several on here have no idea why ATAGI exists.It has many roles.The covid vaccines are the most recent and newsworthy.
Let's be clear ATAGI never banned the use of AZ in people of any age.They do strongly suggest that people with a few rare clotting disorders do not have the AZ vaccine.And in the recommendation for limiting the age groups for AZ they did stress that this was due to a risk benefit assessment and if the incidence of covid rose that the recommendation would change.

So the problem isn't ATAGI but the messengers who on this occasion should be the ones shot.Now the politicians,probably out of ignorance,didn't stress that this advice was because there were very few covid cases and would change if the numbers increased.
The press however were the ringleaders in demonising AZ both out of ignorance and the public's perceived preference for negative news.They really need to be held to account for their role in jeopardising the vaccine roll out.

However there are people who should have known better.Who knew they could pick up the phone and talk to ATAGI members to get the full story.But they didn't and their behaviour borders on negligence.And yes the ringleader here is the QLD CHO.

As some are aware I work at the same hospital as an ATAGI board member and have had several discussions on the subject of the AZ vaccine.At least one person knows that their advice is strongly on the side of using AZ even in people that have one of the more common clotting factors that can be used as a reason not to use AZ.At our Grand rounds yesterday the subject was VITT so again it was mentioned there.The recommendation against those clotting disorders in using AZ was made only in the interests of caution.

So as of now there have been 116 proven or possible cases of VITT in Australia with 6 deaths.Some of the first cases were given treatments that actually worsened the condition.That doesn't happen now.

For some background the purpose of ATAGI and current members are here.

Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI)

The Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) advises the Minister for Health and Aged Care on the National Immunisation Program (NIP) and other immunisation issues.

www.health.gov.au

And if you wish to see their terms of reference they can be downloaded here.

ATAGI terms of reference

The terms of reference for the Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI).

www.health.gov.au

The advice was terrible because they woefully miscalculated the community risk. You can't just turn vaccines off and on during an outbreak, it takes the best part of a year to vaccinate a population. There was always going to be another significant outbreak like there was in Melbourne last year, it was just a matter of when and where.

They are most definitely a smart group of individuals, but part of their job is communicating their advice to politicians and CHOs - and you only have to look as far as Queensland to see how that failed, several days after Sydney finally went into lockdown, the QLD CHO telling her residents not to get AZ and the Premier protesting to the PM that she did not agree to roll out AZ to under 40s and that the UK had banned it (it had not). In the context of those comments, the following interview took place on ABC shortly after:

Christopher Blyth reiterated that the group’s advice was that Pfizer is the preferred vaccine for young people and those under 40 should not get AstraZeneca except in “pressing circumstances”.

“I do not believe at this stage that young people should be receiving AstraZeneca unless circumstances press for that,” Professor Blyth told ABC radio.

“There are some situations where they would be warranted, but they are quite small.”

So he did nothing to quell the confusion and all but backed the QLD position. The problem with covid is advice is directly consumed by the media and citizens, unlike other times where most people don't know what ATAGI is and the advice is distilled by health professionals before it gets to the public. This shouldn't have been a surprise, bit of a giveaway when the ABC is doing interviews with you.

Even when the federal government was trying to push AZ after the Sydney outbreak, ATAGI just gave more fuel to the anti-AZ crowd by making statements like above. That was the time to stand with the government.

If you want some chilling viewing, watch this QandA episode from 01 July to see what the public mood was towards AZ just two months ago: Vaccines: Supply and Demand

 

[drron]

The risk from covid at the time was low so they didn't miscalculate.I have posted the actual release document when that advice was given and it states that the risk would be reevaluated if the number of cases arose.
And as I have stated I have had personal discussion with an ATAGI board member and their views on AZ doesn't fit with your quotations.I would have to see the interview and what the question was that prompted that answer.Interviewers know how to frame a question to get the response they want and most medicos don't have that training.

 

[Seat0B]

Does she off any explanation as to why she is so anti-vax?

Yes. She feels that the long term impacts of vaccination are not known and that she would rather risk COVID as a “healthy 60 year old” than take that risk. She says we should put more effort into treatments rather than making people get vaccinated. She is particularly concerned about mRNA vaccination. She is very influenced by the idea that vaccines are a Big Pharma Conspiracy and quotes a lot of alternative fact doctors and scientists.

And she also is very strong about “bodily sovereignty”.

I’m so surprised. We have been friends for 25 years and I would never have guessed this. Although she did refuse to have a whooping cough booster last year when a grandchild arrived. That was solved by lockdown preventing her travelling interstate to meet the little one until the baby had received its own 2, 4, 6 month shots.

 

[justinbrett]

The risk from covid at the time was low so they didn't miscalculate.I have posted the actual release document when that advice was given and it states that the risk would be reevaluated if the number of cases arose.
And as I have stated I have had personal discussion with an ATAGI board member and their views on AZ doesn't fit with your quotations.I would have to see the interview and what the question was that prompted that answer.Interviewers know how to frame a question to get the response they want and most medicos don't have that training.

That's the fallacy: "at the time" // "re-evaluate if the number of cases arose".

You can't act quick enough to roll out a vaccine in an outbreak. We're seeing that now. That's clearly a flawed strategy.

The risk seemed to be the immediate risk, not the long term risk over the life of the vaccination rollout. If we gave AZ to all 20 million 16+, that would roughly equal 20 deaths. We're seeing more than that in a week in Sydney and we saw more than that on a single day in Melbourne last year. We've seen countless other countries fall one by one to outbreaks, who were fortresses like us. They should have been a warning.

I have no doubt the board would have differing opinions on the matter and the written advice is somewhat sensible (it was enough for the PM to push it - even though there was a pile on after). But that media interview in particular did a lot of damage (just google the quote, it's in just about every publication) and they certainly could have done more and/or acted faster to steer the ship. Even now their advice only classifies Sydney as a major Outbreak - they should have already updated that for Melbourne if not the whole country.

 

[MARTINE]

Yes. She feels that the long term impacts of vaccination are not known and that she would rather risk COVID as a “healthy 60 year old” than take that risk. She says we should put more effort into treatments rather than making people get vaccinated. She is particularly concerned about mRNA vaccination. She is very influenced by the idea that vaccines are a Big Pharma Conspiracy and quotes a lot of alternative fact doctors and scientists.

And she also is very strong about “bodily sovereignty”.

I’m so surprised. We have been friends for 25 years and I would never have guessed this. Although she did refuse to have a whooping cough booster last year when a grandchild arrived. That was solved by lockdown preventing her travelling interstate to meet the little one until the baby had received its own 2, 4, 6 month shots.

There is no ‘discussion’ to be had with people who believe these alternate truths. Education and knowledge is not the issue. Why work in health care ? Never been to a hospital that’s not stacked w pharmaceuticals. Hopefully she’ll avoid the Ivermectin.

 

[Seat0B]

There is no ‘discussion’ to be had with people who believe these alternate truths. Education and knowledge is not the issue. Why work in health care ? Never been to a hospital that’s not stacked w pharmaceuticals. Hopefully she’ll avoid the Ivermectin.

I hope so too but I doubt it. She offered to give me a web site where I could buy some.
As I said, it’s a real strain on what was previously a wonderful and sustaining friendship for me.

 

[MARTINE]

I hope so too but I doubt it. She offered to give me a web site where I could buy some.
As I said, it’s a real strain on what was previously a wonderful and sustaining friendship for me.

Anti-vaxx police officer who had been taking horse worm medicine dies from Covid

Joe Manning complained that Facebook ‘censured’ him for posting misinformation about the coronavirus

www.independent.co.uk

perhaps she could read this about a fellow believer who died

 

[drron]

That's the fallacy: "at the time" // "re-evaluate if the number of cases arose".

You can't act quick enough to roll out a vaccine in an outbreak. We're seeing that now. That's clearly a flawed strategy.

The risk seemed to be the immediate risk, not the long term risk over the life of the vaccination rollout. If we gave AZ to all 20 million 16+, that would roughly equal 20 deaths. We're seeing more than that in a week in Sydney and we saw more than that on a single day in Melbourne last year. We've seen countless other countries fall one by one to outbreaks, who were fortresses like us. They should have been a warning.

I have no doubt the board would have differing opinions on the matter and the written advice is somewhat sensible (it was enough for the PM to push it - even though there was a pile on after). But that media interview in particular did a lot of damage (just google the quote, it's in just about every publication) and they certainly could have done more and/or acted faster to steer the ship. Even now their advice only classifies Sydney as a major Outbreak - they should have already updated that for Melbourne if not the whole country.

Sorry but Therecwas not an outbreak at the time so the evidence wasn't false.You forget the rest of my answer.there were many people hyping the risk of AZ and that wasn't from ATAGI.
The PM pushing ATAGI to change it's advice was political spin.The change was already being discussed .He knew what the answer would be.
And the quote is in many media articles because that is the answer that the media was.I haven't yet seen the question that elicited that response.

 

[MARTINE]

I hope so too but I doubt it. She offered to give me a web site where I could buy some.
As I said, it’s a real strain on what was previously a wonderful and sustaining friendship for me.

PS - ivermectin made by one of biggest pharmaceutical multinationals MSD - who are also manufacturing Covid vaccines

 

[Matt_01]

Yes. She feels that the long term impacts of vaccination are not known and that she would rather risk COVID as a “healthy 60 year old” than take that risk. She says we should put more effort into treatments rather than making people get vaccinated.

Maybe OT and I coming from someone who has no formal medical training but do family members that range from DRs, Nurses and all the other associated fields in between in our immediate and extended family. "Healthy 60 year old" isn't covid killing this age group and then older and now younger ones, I accept individual choice and that your friends approach and decision maybe different from mine. I would be more concerned if she/he is passing on the same sediment to others that know he/she works in the medical field and take her advice onboard.

Now really OT, I follow my great grandfathers and now grandmother's advice of prevention is better than cure and he lived to 105 and my grandmother and her twin sister are getting close to 103. IMO, all the Karen's, pressers, those worried about their followers should just bloody well shut up, and our elected Politicians stop passing the blame. Rant over.