Australian women on Qatar flight internally examined

[dajop]

All this (confected??) hysteria completely ignores the reality that females are sexually humiliated (by our standards) daily in countries with a particular religious faith.
So y'all want to ban Qatar now.. but a year ago they were just wonderful ?

The treatment (or more correctly the mis-treatment) of women in the middle east on a daily basis is deplorable and the lack of any reluctance to subject them to this process is in hindsight not out of the ballpark.

The outrage of it happening to Australian citizens shows clearly how we are often willing to turn a blind eye when it comes to enjoying our comforts and conveniences while making our trips to and through "interesting" and "exotic" foreign lands.
...

Not attempting to pass judgement, however, I puzzle as to why there hasn't been similar outrage at Australian citizens being pulled off flights in China and imprisoned for months or years without trial or any evidence being presented. Is that because they were male and not female, or because they were of Asian appearance, or because they had political views that did not align,

I think there's two things going on:

1) The hysteria and outrage calling for a boycott of the airline and the country - and you are both right in that this has just come about because it has happened to "one of us" , even though it happens on a daily basis to others. Probably the vast majority of those people insisting on not allowing the airline to fly here and asserting a boycott of the airline, might never have flown on QR in the first place.

2) The group of people who are saying "I refuse to fly QR any more", because they are worried that this might happen to them, and thus is a safety/privacy concern for that individual in their circumstance. Women probably can say this, men less so. But in some ways, no different to people avoiding MH because they are worried about their safety.

 

[get me outta here]

1) this has nothing to do with hysteria. I personally do not feel the least bit hysterical. I am never hysterical. In fact, in an emergency I am one of the best people to have around.
2) so there are some who are intimating that Qatar is a no go area. I hope this catches on, but I am sceptical esp re the FC bookings supporters. But, perhaps it could catch on and could have a financial cost which maybe is the only way that the average person can do something.
If anyone has any other suggestions ...
If we can start an international outrage it would help.

 

[Pushka]

So if we truly have knowledge of conditions at these locations and accept there's nothing we can do about it and that when you are in another country you too can be subjected to the same conditions, why is there such shock and horror when it happens? Acceptance? Or actually denial?- it won't happen to me.

All good points. But surely other than aviation accidents and terrorist events, there Is absolutely nothing that these women were involved in, other than sitting on a plane. They weren't even mixing with the general Qatari population, or in off site locations where any kind of risk behaviour (according to ME standards) was on display. They were in transit only and not in that country.

 

[davidj]

there Is absolutely nothing that these women were involved in, other than sitting on a plane. They weren't even mixing with the general Qatari population, or in off site locations where any kind of risk behaviour (according to ME standards) was on display. They were in transit only and not in that country.

I wonder what the legalities of this are? They were in transit, never immigrated through to Qatar (as far as we know). Is it legal to internally inspect women based on a mother "hunt", without consent? Did this happen because the suspect broke sharia law, if so, does sharia law apply to folks in transit?

 

[p--and--t]

All good points. But surely other than aviation accidents and terrorist events, there Is absolutely nothing that these women were involved in, other than sitting on a plane. They weren't even mixing with the general Qatari population, or in off site locations where any kind of risk behaviour (according to ME standards) was on display. They were in transit only and not in that country.

I know it won't happen because of culture and politics etc in both countries, but theoretically, I wonder what the reaction would have been if all the males on the plane were trotted off and subjected to an internal examination because some drugs were found in one of the male toilets. Whether the headlines would have been so bold, whether the FM would have made similar statements etc. The markedly different reactions based on race, culture, religion and gender at play in all reporting is always interesting.

 

[dajop]

They were in transit only and not in that country.

I have a feeling that (even though you have not entered a country, from an immigration perspective) that laws of the country still apply when in an airport located in that country, and possible even on board an aircraft registered in that country.

If you are caught committing a crime like shoplifting (or at the other end of the spectrum, murder) within a transit area you would still be subject the laws of the country where the airport is located.

Like an Australian drug smuggler caught in Changi Airport during transit:

Van Tuong Nguyen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Flying mermaid]

So if we truly have knowledge of conditions at these locations and accept there's nothing we can do about it and that when you are in another country you too can be subjected to the same conditions, why is there such shock and horror when it happens? Acceptance? Or actually denial?- it won't happen to me.

Human's in general (grammatically incorrect I know but) "think funny".

Yes I agree - we do think funny

I think if you want to go to a squeaky clean country, you may as well stay home as it doesn’t exist and in fact Australia is pretty dubious too. You definitely won’t go to Africa, South America, Asia, USA among others.

When I travel I accept that I am taking a level of risk and I try to mitigate this by accepting the culture of the country I visit and keeping out of politics. E.g.when we visited Doha I had packed conservative clothes to wear outside the hotel and even had head scarves if necessary. I made sure Mr FM and I didn’t hold hands or anything like that. That is just being a sensitive traveller.

This is a step too far to me - if I am in danger of state sanctioned sexual assault even if just in transit then I make sure I don’t put myself into that danger.

E.g. we were flying from Kenya to Rwanda on a direct flight. Due to flight changes we ended up Kenya- Burundi- Kigali. We would only be in transit in Burundi, but Mr FM was unhappy about it so we changed the flight and ended up having to downgrade from Business to Economy without compensation but viewed it as worthwhile to avoid risk.

I find much of what happens in the world distressing and am happy to direct donations or take part in Amnesty International campaigns, The treatment of women around the world is particularly distressing and Covid is taking a huge toll, with everything from loss of education and increased genital mutilation. However if I want to travel I am going to have to go to countries where I don’t agree with the systems. It’s all about balancing that risk and avoiding situations where it is too high.

 

[Pushka]

I know it won't happen because of culture and politics etc in both countries, but theoretically, I wonder what the reaction would have been if all the males on the plane were trotted off and subjected to an internal examination because some drugs were found in one of the male toilets. Whether the headlines would have been so bold, whether the FM would have made similar statements etc. The markedly different reactions based on race, culture, religion and gender at play in all reporting is always interesting.

Of course it would have. Well, I would have been as equally disgusted anyway. Assault is assault. And both about power.

We as 'externals' cannot insist that a country or culture changes its belief structure. Reminiscent of missionaries preaching to the "heathens". The drive for change must come from within.

I have a feeling that (even though you have not entered a country, from an immigration perspective) that laws of the country still apply when in an airport located in that country, and possible even on board an aircraft registered in that country.

If you are caught committing a crime like shoplifting (or at the other end of the spectrum, murder) within a transit area you would still be subject the laws of the country where the airport is located.

Like an Australian drug smuggler caught in Changi Airport during transit:

Van Tuong Nguyen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In that case though, drug trafficking is illegal in both (All) countries so am wondering if that makes a difference.

 

[dajop]

In that case though, drug trafficking is illegal in both (All) countries so am wondering if that makes a difference.

I don't really know, we'd have to ask someone with expertise in jurisdictional matters relating to criminal law. But whilst drug trafficking is illegal in both (all) countries, execution for said offence is not.

Interesting articles:

The myths behind airport transit areas: are they really a no man’s land?

Legal experts agree that a country has sovereignty over these zones

english.elpais.com

Is the Airport Transit Lounge Really a Geopolitical Black Hole?

foreignpolicy.com

 

[drron]

You certainly can be strip searched when transitting a country.I was subject to that on a JFK-LHR-CDG trip.And I ended up in just my birthday suit in LHR.No internal examination though I would have objected to that.

 

[jenib]

I think there is another aspect to this which might go some way towards why people did not expect this to happen. The women on the flight were apparently ‘in transit’ and this article states

‘The case has also raised questions over whether foreign women travelling through international hubs like Doha can legally be subjected to Qatari laws and procedures.

"Qatar would need to have a specific legal basis for this procedure under its law to be compliant with international law," Pauline Wright, president of the Law Council Australia, told PM.

"They'd have to show it was strictly necessary and there was not a less intrusive means available."

I know I used to believe that transit passengers had not actually entered the country.

The rest of the article is very very disturbing
'No woman should have to go through that': Case of abandoned baby highlights Qatar's treatment of women, especially for migrant women workers

'No woman should have to go through that': Case of abandoned baby highlights Qatar's treatment of women

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I wonder what the legalities of this are? They were in transit, never immigrated through to Qatar (as far as we know). Is it legal to internally inspect women based on a mother "hunt", without consent? Did this happen because the suspect broke sharia law, if so, does sharia law apply to folks in transit?

I have a feeling that (even though you have not entered a country, from an immigration perspective) that laws of the country still apply when in an airport located in that country, and possible even on board an aircraft registered in that country.

dajop is correct. You may be 'in transit' but you are still subject to the law of the transit country. The only thing that hasn't happened is that you haven't been immigration cleared. The law of the registered country would also apply on the aircraft, inflight.

As jenib points out though... there may be a question as to whether the law was 'legal'.

 

[DC3]

Qatar is not a democracy, and as far as I know, doesn’t claim to be. At the mercy of the ruler (The Emir), I understand?

Edited

 

[Pushka]

dajop is correct. You may be 'in transit' but you are still subject to the law of the transit country. The only thing that hasn't happened is that you haven't been immigration cleared. The law of the registered country would also apply on the aircraft, inflight.

As jenib points out though... there may be a question as to whether the law was 'legal'.

Except Qatar served alcohol, on the ground, in Doha, during Ramadan.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Except Qatar served alcohol, on the ground, in Doha, during Ramadan.

True! But there will be an exemption, written into the law somewhere, to allow this

 

[p--and--t]

Except Qatar served alcohol, on the ground, in Doha, during Ramadan.

...as in many countries (Including AU) there is the law (if it exists) then, if it is enforced, if it is enforceable, how it is interpreted, how it is enforced, who you know, how much you can afford and what avenues of influence you can bring to bear.

I’ve always been a bit curious about Dubai where we were informed it is illegal to drink alcohol and not be caught with alcohol on the street otherwise you could be in jail with no rights as a foreigner.

However alcohol is sold in the Dubai duty free?

However alcohol is served in copious quantities in 5* hotels where the hotel is owned by an influential chain that brings in large quantities of foreign currency. As long as you don’t step onto the footpath with a glass in hand the police will look the other way even if they can see you from the street drinking through the glass windows of the bar.

However if you stay on a 3-4* hotel not belonging to an influential brand you are advised on checkin that drinking on the premises is illegal by Emirates law and if you bought alcohol at duty free it must be put in a cupboard where room service staff cant see it and it must not be consumed on the premises.

 

[tgh]

The Emirates ( and I suspect.. others) use religious doctrine as a tool to manage the masses… there is no real belief process at all among the elite.
Under "protection" you can do all sorts of stuff that might otherwise see you in the clink.
I recall a monstrous tent erected in the desert, seating for many many hundreds, the 6* food and wine flowed and flowed and…….

 

[MEL_Traveller]

...as in many countries (Including AU) there is the law (if it exists) then, if it is enforced, if it is enforceable, how it is interpreted, how it is enforced, who you know, how much you can afford and what avenues of influence you can bring to bear.

I’ve always been a bit curious about Dubai where we were informed it is illegal to drink alcohol and not be caught with alcohol on the street otherwise you could be in jail with no rights as a foreigner.

However alcohol is sold in the Dubai duty free?

However alcohol is served in copious quantities in 5* hotels where the hotel is owned by an influential chain that brings in large quantities of foreign currency. As long as you don’t step onto the footpath with a glass in hand the police will look the other way even if they can see you from the street drinking through the glass windows of the bar.

However if you stay on a 3-4* hotel not belonging to an influential brand you are advised on checkin that drinking on the premises is illegal by Emirates law and if you bought alcohol at duty free it must be put in a cupboard where room service staff cant see it and it must not be consumed on the premises.

The sale and consumption of alcohol is legal in Dubai in certain circumstances. This includes the sale of alcohol in bars attached to hotels, or in private member clubs. So not really a case of police 'looking the other way'... it's legal!

Supposedly since 2019 if you're a foreigner you're supposed to apply for an alcohol licence if you wish to consume alcohol. Not sure how that's panned out since the arrival of ciovid.

 

[Pushka]

The Emirates ( and I suspect.. others) use religious doctrine as a tool to manage the masses… there is no real belief process at all among the elite.
Under "protection" you can do all sorts of stuff that might otherwise see you in the clink.
I recall a monstrous tent erected in the desert, seating for many many hundreds, the 6* food and wine flowed and flowed and…….

Well, that philosophy is also used by most religions and Governments. State of Fear by Michael Crichton.

 

[bcworld]

FM statement today that women on TEN flights were subjected to this treatment:

Foreign Minister reveals passengers from more planes were invasively searched at Qatar airport

Women from as many as 10 different aircraft at a Doha airport were subjected to invasive internal examinations as Qatari authorities searched for the mother of an abandoned newborn.

www.abc.net.au