Australian women on Qatar flight internally examined

[RooFlyer]

Story on the news channels tonight. I am sure Qantas might have made a call but I don’t think Qatar can’t just forget what happened to the 5 woman.

Minister rejected Qatar Airways bid same day she signed letter to women strip-searched at Qatari airport

Ah, thanks for that BB. Makes perfect sense. So the assaulted women knew more about the Minister's decision, than the Prime Minister. That's odd.

Almost irrelevant to this thread,

Totally irrelevant to this thread (which was previously the Qatar extra flight thread). but a good distraction.

 

[pauly7]

I look at it slightly differently - yes, what Qatar/Qatar state did is utterly unforgivable, and then not to even properly acknowledge / compensate / even apologise properly to this day is salt into the open wound, but…

….It’s also an absolute disgrace that our (Australian) government did not take stronger action against the Qatar for the horrific violation of those women’s rights.

Several AU companies / global affiliates that have operations in AU have Qatar on no fly lists, even STILL because of this - they haven’t forgotten what happened, even if our government / some people have.

I think that clearly as many others have posted this is lurking just below the surface of many politicians minds. And I can see it already starting to bubble back up in the media as well. This will be a factor in the decision as well, of course.

 

[Tiki]

We woudn't even be having this discussion if the original criminal, the woman who tossed her newborn baby in a rubbish bin in the airport had chosen a different venue. Like a hospital, shopping centre, or religious insititution. Hopefully the baby would have been found and the investigation to find the mother proceeded in a normal investigation by the local police. But because she chose to dump the baby in an international airport, this has turned into an international incident and I do feel that QR has been unfairly blamed.

The blame should be laid on the police officers who ordered this invasive search of the women. Someone in the police force either ordered it to happen or was in charge and allowed his underlings to do it. Whether it was due to poor training or bad decision making should be a matter of legal process. But it was the POLICE who made the bad decisions, not the airline. Airline staff like pilots, engineers, cabin crew, baggage handlers are not trained in law enforcement and judicial procedure.

I do believe the police officers involved were charged with illegal search or something, now sure how that played out. At the very least they should all be sacked. And the police dept held responsible to the actions.

The airline had no fault. What could they do? Refuse to allow police officers to enter the plane? I don't think any airline in any country has that power.

 

[RooFlyer]

….It’s also an absolute disgrace that our (Australian) government did not take stronger action against the Qatar for the horrific violation of those women’s rights.

Probably fair enough ... but do you take the same stand against Chinese Airlines and I ask what you think 'stronger action' the Australian government should take against China (not talking about airline policy) - for very obvious reasons? Pick a country. Same. Human rights in USA? Australia has been accused of horrific human rights abuses.

 

[Lynda2475]

Wow @Tiki that is akin to victim blaming. The woman who dumped the baby obviously had mental health issues or was super desperate and afraid since it is illegal to have a child out of wedlock in Qatar, there simply aren't safe surrender sights there, victims of rape can be imprisoned, no access to legal abortion. Everything points to a foreign worker or local afraid for their life.

However, crazy leap to consider tourists on flights to countries where there are no consequence for having a child out of wedlock, where can easily surrender unwanted child etc as key suspects.

The urgency was to get baby health care, not go on a witch hunt for a traumatised woman. They seemed to have failed to find the mother anyway.

Airport is government run facility, it was a state order (not some local cop) decision to address the situation by assaulting women. They may have dismissed a cop or two, but they should be in gaol along with the government officials who gave the order.

Qatar government own and run QR, own and run Doha airport. The agreement for access to Aus airports also between governments. No separation in this case, so legit for Aus to withhold further access until this appalling matter is sufficiently resolved.

Investigators could have easily scanned security footage to see who entered that particular restroom, or see if any passenger suddenly lost a baby bump. Ridiculous to perform internal exams on passengers simply for being female, everything points to someone working there not transiting.

You already have ability to fly QR we don't need to ignore appalling actions with more opportunities to assault travellers.

BTW a couple of extra flights aren't going to give you more award seats. QR famous for withholding seats. If you really want to fly QR on guaranteed awards best you join their FF program where seats aren't withheld.

But please respect that other people want to make their own choices as well.

Shame you aren't respecting the wishes of the victims who were told by minister QR would not be given more access. You can already choose QR those women can not choose to be trauma free.

 

[MooTime]

Probably fair enough ... but do you take the same stand against Chinese Airlines and I ask what you think 'stronger action' the Australian government should take against China (not talking about airline policy) - for very obvious reasons? Pick a country. Same. Australia has been accused of horrific human rights abuses.

I've said throughout that the incident at DOH was going to be the primary reason for the refusal, and the timing of the Minister's letter and the refusal, and the Minister's statements today have simply confirmed this, after all the previous obfuscation by Government ministers and here.

And its funny - the DOH incident seems to be a block to additional flights into the major gateways, but QR are free to fly extra flights elsewhere. In fact it just heard the Minister say on ABC AM they would be 'welcome' to do that.

And in spite of the attempts by some to re-write history by saying that VA was 'chief lobbyist to the minister' (I mean - really - consider government deflection 101) and certain vague QR assumptions, the role of Qantas, as being apparently the sole party to oppose Qatar's application, cannot be swept away. Every report over the past week or so have gone over Qantas' superb and very effective lobbying machine in Canberra.

Exactly, I incident in DOH involving 13 women of which only 5 are taking it further I believe.

Yet China is allegedly abusing human rights in a large scale of men and women in its northern region which has gone on for years and happening to this day, but that's ok, of Air China wanted more slots I bet it works be approved & there wouldn't be a whimper.

DOH incident is on such a small scale in comparison to China and other countries actions, yet the waffle continues.

Countries should ban QF as Australia is guilty as any of human rights against Aboriginals in the past.

It's all such nonsense.

 

[justinbrett]

Exactly, I incident in DOH involving 13 women of which only 5 are taking it further I believe.

Yet China is allegedly abusing human rights in a large scale of men and women in its northern region which has gone on for years and happening to this day, but that's ok, of China Airlines wanted more slots I bet it works be approved & there wouldn't be a whimper.

DOH incident is on such a small scale in comparison to China and other countries actions, yet the waffle continues.

Countries should ban QF as Australia is guilty as any of human rights against Aboriginals in the just.

It's all such nonsense.

Australia hasn't banned QR

 

[UP4014]

We woudn't even be having this discussion if the original criminal, the woman who tossed her newborn baby in a rubbish bin in the airport had chosen a different venue. Like a hospital, shopping centre, or religious insititution. Hopefully the baby would have been found and the investigation to find the mother proceeded in a normal investigation by the local police. But because she chose to dump the baby in an international airport, this has turned into an international incident and I do feel that QR has been unfairly blamed.

The blame should be laid on the police officers who ordered this invasive search of the women. Someone in the police force either ordered it to happen or was in charge and allowed his underlings to do it. Whether it was due to poor training or bad decision making should be a matter of legal process. But it was the POLICE who made the bad decisions, not the airline. Airline staff like pilots, engineers, cabin crew, baggage handlers are not trained in law enforcement and judicial procedure.

I do believe the police officers involved were charged with illegal search or something, now sure how that played out. At the very least they should all be sacked. And the police dept held responsible to the actions.

The airline had no fault. What could they do? Refuse to allow police officers to enter the plane? I don't think any airline in any country has that power.

When I choose an airline to fly on, it's based on several criteria.
1. Availability in award class. Being a low income person, I need to use my VA points sourced mostly from Flybuys for free (plus tax) tickets to Istanbul. Lately this availability has been mostly on QR with SQ very limited.
2. Airline safety record. QR is consistently in the top 10 airlines for safety. The Safest Airlines In 2023
3. Punctuality and reliability. I really don't want to be stranded mid-itinerary some place and miss further connections down the road. QR is top 10 for punctuality which means their staff know what they are doing and do their jobs properly. https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/most-punctual-airlines-2022/index.html
4. It's a bonus for me if the connecting airport allows visa free entry and interesting places to visit while on a layover. It's super easy to get a bus from the airport to Souk al Waqif, wander around a bit, have lunch at that gorgeous Persian restaurant and then get another bus back to the airport. I feel perfectly safe doing this as a woman traveling alone. Just the fact that no further similar incidents have occurred supports that the police have been trained better and they won't do this again.

So in my opinion, I want QR to have more routes and more seats for those of us who do want to fly on this airline and have the personal choice to do so. I want to see airfares come down, I will run out of points eventually. Just yesterday I looked at QF, award availability is terrible, even in economy! And if QF gets its way and blocks QR, things will be even worse. I respect that some of you will never choose to fly QR because of what happened in 2020. That is a choice for you to make regardless of whether QR gets more flights to Australia or not. But please respect that other people want to make their own choices as well.

In brief, Sharia Law in Qatar, so police acting under that which is in their constitution. QATAR Airways owned by the Qatari Govt.

I would suggest that while they have nice new and shiny courts, police stations and other institutions they do not represent what we in Australia would consider "rule of law" or the notion that all people are treated equally.

My criteria for flying specific airlines is different to yours and have nil plans to visit Qatar or use their airline.

 

[stm1sydney]

China Airlines wanted more slots I bet it works be approved & there wouldn't be a whimper.

To clarify, I think you mean Air China. China Airlines is from the country of Taiwan (ROC). Otherwise, that was a great post.

 

[Quickstatus]

Like a hospital, shopping centre, or religious insititution

The location is Qatar. There are no places that facilitate safe baby surrender . Religious institutions? - which one in Qatar that allows this

Countries should ban QF

No one is banning anyone. The only ones getting banned are Russian airlines, and ElAl in some of the Middle East.
But King is using it as an quid pro quo leverage. Albo just wants/ using plausible deniability.

 

[Lynda2475]

It's all such nonsense

No your strawman argument is.

QF isn't a government company, it had zero role in discriminatory aboriginal policy from decades ago. Aboriginal or any ethnicity do not have the fear/threat of unfounded government sanctioned assault simply for being a passenger of a certain gender/ethnicity on a flight operated via an Australian port.

China has appalling human rights record, and I have no desire to fly a Chinese airline or visit mainland China. But I am not aware of Chinese government forcing transiting passengers off a flight and physically assaulting them purely for being female.

Qatar government have given no guarantee that such an incident will not happen again, they are claiming sovereign immunity in the court case and that nothing wrong occurred. They made their bed.

Personally I think if you are female you'd be nuts to fly QR via DOH, but people can still choose to do so. QR already fly to/from here, although I'd prefer they weren't allowed to and they were booted from One aworld.

FyI I understand British women also taking legal action.

 

[Chicken]

100%.

I honestly feel sick reading some of the comments on this forum glossing over what happened to those women, justifying the passing of time making it ok and laughing emoticons over posts about them. Imagine if it was your mother, sister or daughter. Seriously.

Where? Which post?

You are allowing personal opinion on a matter becoming the only factor on bilateral relationship between 2 countries.

China committe genocide on millions of Uyghur. If we should ban Qatar over the sexual assaults of a plane full of women, surely we should have banned all Chinese planes by now?

Oh, the Volkswagen cars on our roads? Many contain parts made by forced Uyghur labour too.

Surely we should ban all Chinese airlines?

What about Tigray region? We should ban Ethiopian Air, right?

What happened to these women is terrible; millions times worse than what happened with the Spanish football team; but you need to consider the contexts: one is what happened in the contexts of Spain and Australia, the other is the context or Qatar.

It's like, if someone gets beaten up in an Australian prison, we should sue the Australian government. If someone gets beaten up in a Chinese prison, forget protesting or flight ban, but praise Allah / thank the lord, because you haven't been "evaporated".

 

[Quickstatus]

incident in DOH involving 13 women of which only 5 are taking it further I believe.

Not taking it further implies that it was OK?

ban Qatar

No one is banning anyone.

Reading through this entire thread, I'm of the view the Govt was/is trying the behind the scene softly softly approach for which I am sympathetic to. Diplomacy often requires this and backchannels can often be very effective because it eliminates all the noise from various interest groups and allows both parties to move forward with as much of their interests intact.

King had other considerations (we know what they are - the unspoken reason is usually the best reason) apart from the pure "by the book apolitical tick box" that the public service was using for their recommendations.

Albo is smartly trying to keep this within the Department of Transportation portfolio in order to signal to the Qataris that this is no big deal - just a small matter of the court case that needs to go away. Bilateral relationships between countries are fraught with problems but are important in the overall perspective. Qatar is not a big trading partner overall but it is a major trading partner in the region and there have been many top level representations from Australia to Qatar over the years that is not worth risking.

 

[RooFlyer]

But I am not aware of Chinese government forcing transiting passengers off a flight and physically assaulting them purely for being female.

I've pointed this out before - human rights extend beyond the physical assault of females.

Aboriginal or any ethnicity do not have the fear/threat of unfounded government sanctioned assault simply for being a passenger of a certain gender/ethnicity on a flight operated via an Australian port.

I think Australia's indigenous people's concerns extend beyond that possibility, don't you?

I get it you are appalled by what happened at DOH. You aren't the only one. But the using that as the sole measure as to what is actionable as a response to abuses, and the dismissal of other, much worse and long-lived situations I think is a bit rank.

 

[Chicken]

Countries should ban QF as Australia is guilty as any of human rights against Aboriginals in the past.

We are the only country which does not have a treaty with Aboriginal people, and our jurisdictions refused access to prisons for the UN officials only 9 months ago.

We Australia should face sanctions from the world, and have Qantas banned. And this is not a throw away comment. (We Australians are a disgrace)

 

[Ausbt]

I need to use my VA points sourced mostly from Flybuys for free (plus tax) tickets to Istanbul. Lately this availability has been mostly on QR with SQ very limited.

Partially agree and partially disagree with your post. For example I'm disappointed we won't have more QR flights to choose from, but also horrified at what occurred with the invasive searches and just how backward certain middle-east countries are. Sadly we seem dominated by their airlines due to geography. Part of me is 'screw QR' regardless of who has ultimate blame. Are pax in QRs care at time of search? Who knows.

On the positive side, I did wangle some SYD-SIN-IST on SQ in J the other day. I'd been watching for a long while and was almost giving up with KrisFlyer points expiring too, however it sort of felt like availability for +330 days or so opened up a bit so I do hope you can lock in yours.

And as far as QF goes, well I did search for returns as I'm now tapped out of Velocity & KrisFlyer points but still have some QFF. Got quoted something like 1m for a J ticket for the return leg. Certainly don't have that.

 

[Quickstatus]

We are the only country which does not have a treaty with Aboriginal people

That's not true

 

[jakeseven7]

Where? Which post?

You are allowing personal opinion on a matter becoming the only factor on bilateral relationship between 2 countries.

The posts were moderated and deleted because some of them were abhorrent. Thanks mod team!

I don’t actually understand what you are saying I was talking about 1 specific element of the decision but if you interpreted it that way, sorry.

 

[Pushka]

The internal searches undertaken were absolutely revolting. The security at Doha is amongst the most threatening? that I’ve observed while travelling. But in reality it’s their country their rules. The airline crew were in no position to do anything. And there are many countries who have abhorrent to us, legislation. Even good ole USA is on a backwards human rights move. I understand fully why people wish not to travel with ME airlines. But if we are using a country’s human rights agenda as a criteria for plane travel then expect to spend a lot of time not travelling.

 

[oz_mark]

The urgency was to get baby health care, not go on a witch hunt for a traumatised woman. They seemed to have failed to find the mother anyway.

The mother (and father) were both identified, and was facing charges of attempted murder.