Building a stronger Qantas

[11sjw]

Dont remind me, I had just booked four family Business class flights for our summer holiday. We lost everything. We had been saving them for a long time and it gave us some benefit for Hubby's prolonged travel that year. Still hurts.

I'll put that in perspective for you. My step father lost his job when Ansett went belly up.

 

[connieguy]

I'll put that in perspective for you. My step father lost his job when Ansett went belly up.

Understood.

But QF is not Ansett nor is QF going belly up. AJ needs to stop playing that "Look At What Happened To Ansett" card. It only undermines his credibility.

Likewise the press and the unions need to put the 1,000 jobs in context. As far as I have read, no one is getting fired at QF. What will happen is the next 1,000 people who leave QF will not be replaced. That is a VERY different situation that QF firing 1,000 people.

 

[11sjw]

Understood.

But QF is not Ansett nor is QF going belly up. AJ needs to stop playing that "Look At What Happened To Ansett" card. It only undermines his credibility.

Likewise the press and the unions need to put the 1,000 jobs in context. As far as I have read, no one is getting fired at QF. What will happen is the next 1,000 people who leave QF will not be replaced. That is a VERY different situation that QF firing 1,000 people.

Agree with you. I was commenting to those that complained of losing points/Lifetime Lounge membership when Ansett went bust. If that's all they lost then they were doing ok.

Personally the unions that Qantas deal with have, in part, caused Qantas' costs to be higher.

I've also been told by a few QF long haul pilots that JQi's maintenance costs get lumped in QFi's accounts, hence showing QFi to be doing worse than it actually is. Can't confirm it though.

 

[ethernet]

If just 2 out of 10 fly out of .au on QF, then management has been asleep at the wheel.
Outsourcing to more subsidized airlines makes sense, but their customer 'modelling' needs to reach out and individually target non or past QFer's, badly, as the front half is unacceptable.
Cutting costs with a 20% market share will not 'grow' the bottom line, and none of the press releases
expand on getting back some of the other 80%.

 

[Oneworldplus2]

But QF is not Ansett nor is QF going belly up. AJ needs to stop playing that "Look At What Happened To Ansett" card. It only undermines his credibility.

But...the airline industry is very punishing and does operate on thin margins. It doesn't take much and it can all go downhill very, very fast.

 

[VHOEJ]

Understood.

But QF is not Ansett nor is QF going belly up. AJ needs to stop playing that "Look At What Happened To Ansett" card. It only undermines his credibility.

Likewise the press and the unions need to put the 1,000 jobs in context. As far as I have read, no one is getting fired at QF. What will happen is the next 1,000 people who leave QF will not be replaced. That is a VERY different situation that QF firing 1,000 people.

I agree with Joyce - people forget Ansett very easily. It was not the government that brought them down, it was thier own mismanagement. If QF does nothing, they will be in the same boat.

Agree with you about the 1000 jobs - the media seized on that are misinterpreted it big time. Losing 4 aircraft means you don't need those crews, the engineers to service them etc.

The media's coverage has been ordinary but so has the commentary about it - ironically the people in the papers who are most vocal about the 1000 jobs are the same people who never fly with the airline. You can't have it both ways - the ones who should comment are the sharehodlers and the frequent flyers.

 

[markis10]

I agree with Joyce - people forget Ansett very easily. It was not the government that brought them down, it was thier own mismanagement. If QF does nothing, they will be in the same boat.
.

Joyce should know Ansett very well, he left Ansett in 2000 after being responsible for the Network Planning, Schedules Planning and Network Strategy functions. If you check out the board and senior management there is a lot of Ansett, I am sure they have not forgotten!

 

[Simsy85]

The changes Alan referred to this morning regarding Gold and Silver bonuses is referring to the changes that were made in May. We are not making any further changes to the Qantas Frequent Flyer program as a result of todays announcements. Apologies if this caused any confusion.

Generally Platinum members fly in the premium cabins more than anyone else and therefore the May changes (PY 25-50%, J 50-75% and First 50-100%) were designed to be of benefit to our Platinum members.

Plus, a big benefit to Platinum members and First class travellers, we will be establishing Marc Newson First lounges in LA, Singapore and Hong Kong . And the combined size of our First and Buiness lounges in LA will be three times bigger than today.

Also, as I just mentioned in a previous reply, Qantas Frequent Flyers will be able to earn frequent flyer points and status credits on the new premium airline based in Asia and redeem these through the Qantas Frequent Flyer program. So this will give Platinums a whole new opportunity to earn points and Status credits when they travel.

I hope the above makes you feel better about travelling Qantas as we would hate to lose you.

Cheers,
Red Roo

Thanks for the reply Red Roo, but I just want to point out how something like that, rings with a WP.

The changes Alan referred to this morning regarding Gold and Silver bonuses is referring to the changes that were made in May. We are not making any further changes to the Qantas Frequent Flyer program as a result of todays announcements. Apologies if this caused any confusion.

Ok I accept that - no issues.

Generally Platinum members fly in the premium cabins more than anyone else and therefore the May changes (PY 25-50%, J 50-75% and First 50-100%) were designed to be of benefit to our Platinum members.

Whilst I appreciate your sentiment, let me put it to you this way. Essentially your saying we get new benefits, but we have to pay to benefit from them. You see the problem with that is any Silver and Gold member that is paying for that, is getting the same benefit. So its not actually a benefit for WP's - in fact to be 100% honest with you, its more a "toughen up WP, you can pay more"

Plus, a big benefit to Platinum members and First class travellers, we will be establishing Marc Newson First lounges in LA, Singapore and Hong Kong . And the combined size of our First and Buiness lounges in LA will be three times bigger than today.

Awesome. Except your own CEO makes the admission that Domestic is propping up international routes. Again there is no benefit here for WP's who fly alot of domestic routes. I completly understand that this is a benefit of WP flying internationally, but to be honest, (and I dont want to make it personal about me becuase I feel these are all issues WP's face) I live in DRW. QF don't fly international from DRW. I can fly Jetstar to Asia, and I often do, but more often than not I can't access QF lounges, even though I'm supposed to be able to. (even when I ring the WP desk before I walk in to confirm i'm allowed which they say yes!!)

Not to mention, I got my WP wings on domestic flights, not international (not that it matters - but im pointing out my company is one of those that have helped QF domestically be profitable with our J flying from DRW [circa $1500 to anywhere at best from DRW])

Also, as I just mentioned in a previous reply, Qantas Frequent Flyers will be able to earn frequent flyer points and status credits on the new premium airline based in Asia and redeem these through the Qantas Frequent Flyer program. So this will give Platinums a whole new opportunity to earn points and Status credits when they travel.

Awesome. Except how is this a benefit to just WP's? In fact its more of a benefit to Silver and Gold because you give them bonus points and not WP's.

I hope the above makes you feel better about travelling Qantas as we would hate to lose you.

You won't; but the message here is Red Roo, don't take WP's for granted.

Someone made the comment that "be fair, they're trying to save an airline" and thats true, but think about it - by YOUR OWN admission, we are the ones that fly J and F - and we pay for it too. People like us will help you stay profitable (its why VIRGIN are coming after us, because they have dirty little $$$ in their eyes).

 

[dajop]

If just 2 out of 10 fly out of .au on QF, then management has been asleep at the wheel.
Outsourcing to more subsidized airlines makes sense, but their customer 'modelling' needs to reach out and individually target non or past QFer's, badly, as the front half is unacceptable.
Cutting costs with a 20% market share will not 'grow' the bottom line, and none of the press releases
expand on getting back some of the other 80%.

The 2 out of 10 thing has happened for more reasons than just management being asleep at the wheel. For a start other airlines have aggressively expanded into the Australian market - and have been able to gain real traction because the location of the Qantas hub means that 7 out 10 Australians have to backtrack to fly to Asia or Europe via Sydney (compounded by the logisitics of the transfer at SYD). Other airlines have all been able to expand their services and take advantage of better located hubs whether it is EK, SQ, MH, CX or TG and more recently QR & EY, through multiple daily services to the likes of MEL, BNE & PER and even sustaining daily services to ADL. Which is why QF are looking at the Qantasia option.

And there is no doubt QF have also ignored secondary cities for a long time, allowing other to come in and cement themselves almost as the "home" carriers. Melbourne is a point in case, really 5m isn't an insignificant population (including Victoria as a whole), and nor are some of the companies that have their head offices there. But SQ and EK both have as many non-stop flights to the "the world" (beyond NZ) as QF do. As a native Melburnian I almost felt more affinity to SQ than QF as they seemed a logical choice to fly anywhere to avoid the dreaded SYD! Furthermore, QF sponsors the wallabies (which only reinforces the Sydneycentric perceptions ), meanwhile EK sponsors the Melbourne Cup and Collingwood -the team that ignites the most passion (either positive or negative) out of all AFL teams. Of course geography plays a big part in this, but no wonder it is 2 out 10!!

 

[Justchecking]

I've read all 61 pages of this thread and what I got from was this...


Joyce - QF lost market share because it's too expensive on fares
QF Pax - QF lost my market share because the service was unacceptable.


My deduction - you can price cut all you like but the price at which QFs current service becomes acceptable still will not win it profits or fans. The problem with QF International services is the service, and ive not seen Joyce say anything about that or it's improvement.

 

[docjames]

I've read all 61 pages of this thread and what I got from was this...


Joyce - QF lost market share because it's too expensive on fares
QF Pax - QF lost my market share because the service was unacceptable.


My deduction - you can price cut all you like but the price at which QFs current service becomes acceptable still will not win it profits or fans. The problem with QF International services is the service, and ive not seen Joyce say anything about that or it's improvement.

That's a very succinct way of saying what I tried to a couple of pages ago. Agree completely.

 

[harvyk]

I've read all 61 pages of this thread and what I got from was this...


Joyce - QF lost market share because it's too expensive on fares
QF Pax - QF lost my market share because the service was unacceptable.


My deduction - you can price cut all you like but the price at which QFs current service becomes acceptable still will not win it profits or fans. The problem with QF International services is the service, and ive not seen Joyce say anything about that or it's improvement.

Your deduction is pretty close to spot on... The reason most executives and sales people assume they lose a customer is due to price. The real reason most customers leaves a company is due to service.

 

[simongr]

There is nothing in the Qantas CEO's statement that addresses the core problem - the shocking decline of the Australian outbound market to 18%. No plans to address the reasons for this decline besides blaming the big ugly subsidised Middle-Eastern carriers. What about the generally very average QF in-cabin service and the long waits on hold (even though I am a 'valued' caller). What about the on-going reduction in destinations and now the snuggling up to One World partners so that we can change aircraft in the middle of the night. What about the premium we have to pay to enjoy the 'priviledge' of flying QF - a 3 star airline at the moment that is delusional in thinking it is 5 star. What about turning up at the airport and finding out that your QF flight number is really for a JQ aircraft.
The decline of Qantas International will continue until there are only a few routes operated - via Singapore to London; to LAX; to Tokyo and maybe one other mainline destination somewhere in China - this 'rationalisation' will be justified by noting the decline in their market share to less than 10%. All other routes will be operated by Jetstar or one of the One World pals.

And then there is the in new to be premium airline somewhereAsia to be equipped with aircraft that don't have the range to service Australia (not sure about the neo). Makes a lot of sense eh?

We can kiss QF goodbye in the next decade. Make sure you use your FF points and don't get stuck with a bundle like happened with Ansett!

Just to pick a couple of points:

- Blaming the mid east carriers - are they subsidised or not? Obviously their fuel costs are massively cheaper ex-ME as fuel is stupidly cheap there.
- Changing aircraft mid trip - there are only two routes that applies to LHR via BKK and SIN, - and all of those trips you already have to change aircraft essentially as you have to disembark - what is so hard about changing carrier if you are satisfied with the service of the other carrier?
- Turning up at the airport to find you are on JQ rather than QF - well if that is your problem then I think your problem is you are stupid. The website says "flight operated by JQ". If people are spending $4-$5K of family flights and NOT reading the frikken website then they get what they deserve.
- premium airline somewhere in Asia to be equipped with aircraft that don't have the range to service Australia - check your facts about their capacity to service Oz

I wont get into the Ansett offhand comment as it would be hard to debate what Ansett (rather than their owner) was doing to change the business model and the fleet to have a fighting chance 10 years after the fact.

 

[simongr]

I've read all 61 pages of this thread and what I got from was this...


Joyce - QF lost market share because it's too expensive on fares
QF Pax - QF lost my market share because the service was unacceptable.


My deduction - you can price cut all you like but the price at which QFs current service becomes acceptable still will not win it profits or fans. The problem with QF International services is the service, and ive not seen Joyce say anything about that or it's improvement.

Umm I think AJ said it was too expensive on costs and that led to increased fares

 

[serfty]

If just 2 out of 10 fly out of .au on QF, then management has been asleep at the wheel....

It's not 2/10, it's more like 3/10 - AJ has fudged the figures (http://www.australianfrequentflyer..../why-did-aj-exclude-jqi-32322.html#post477543).

 

[Oneworldplus2]

Your deduction is pretty close to spot on... The reason most executives and sales people assume they lose a customer is due to price. The real reason most customers leaves a company is due to service.

Is that why JQ/JQ Asia have been so successful (who are a LCC and don't really offer service, but are cheap in price?)

All depends on what market you are tapping into. JQ have done extremely well, QFi is struggling and need to pick up the ball.

 

[Justchecking]

Umm I think AJ said it was too expensive on costs and that led to increased fares

And soon to be ex-QF flyers have said in many ways, the cost wasn't the issue, the lack of service relative to the cost was. In other words, I'd be happy to pay that price if you gave me SQs\CXs\posh airline experience, but you don't so I fly someone who does. Not because your fare was too expensive but because you, as an airline, don't live up to the expectation of that fare. Now part of the onboard experience is hard product, part is the crew. Neither of those two things will change onboard QFi Australian operated flights as part of this plan. Someone else us getting the new aircraft and someone else is getting new crew. It helps QFi's woes, not one bit.

 

[markis10]

Is that why JQ/JQ Asia have been so successful (who are a LCC and don't really offer service, but are cheap in price?)

All depends on what market you are tapping into. JQ have done extremely well, QFi is struggling and need to pick up the ball.

I still maintain JQ are not as successful as people make out, at least when it comes to getting bums on seats, for instance in May the seat utilisation makes for interesting reading

[TABLE="width: 475"]
[TR]
[TD]Scheduled Operator[/TD]
[TD]Service to/from[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Seat[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Utilisation %[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hawaiian Airlines[/TD]
[TD]USA[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]87[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Air Canada[/TD]
[TD]Canada[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]85[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]V Australia[/TD]
[TD]ALL SERVICES[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]81[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Delta Air Lines[/TD]
[TD]USA[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]80[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Eva Air[/TD]
[TD]Taiwan[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]78[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Air China[/TD]
[TD]China[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Air New Zealand[/TD]
[TD]New Zealand[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Etihad Airways[/TD]
[TD]United Arab Emirates[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tiger Airways
[/TD]
[TD]Singapore[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]76[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]United Airlines[/TD]
[TD]USA[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]76[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jetstar Asia[/TD]
[TD]Singapore[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]76[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]British Airways[/TD]
[TD]UK[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]75[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malaysia Airlines[/TD]
[TD]Malaysia[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]74[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]China Eastern Airlines[/TD]
[TD]China[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]74[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD]Qantas Airways[/TD]
[TD]ALL SERVICES[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]74[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Air Caledonie[/TD]
[TD]New Caledonia[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]73[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AirAsia X[/TD]
[TD]Malaysia[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]72[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD]South African Airways[/TD]
[TD]South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]72[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD]Air Pacific[/TD]
[TD]Fiji[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]71[/TD]
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[TD]Jetstar[/TD]
[TD]ALL SERVICES[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
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[TD]China Airlines[/TD]
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[TD]Singapore Airlines
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[TD]ALL SERVICES[/TD]
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[TD]Korean Air[/TD]
[TD]Korea[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68[/TD]
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[TD]LAN Airlines[/TD]
[TD]Chile[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
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[TR]
[TD]Continental Micronesia[/TD]
[TD]Guam[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]67[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cathay Pacific Airways[/TD]
[TD]Hong Kong (SAR)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pacific Blue[/TD]
[TD]ALL SERVICES[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Qatar Airways[/TD]
[TD]Qatar[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]63[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Asiana Airlines[/TD]
[TD]Korea[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]63[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Philippine Airlines[/TD]
[TD]Philippines[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]62[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vietnam Airlines (e)[/TD]
[TD]Vietnam[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]60[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Garuda Indonesia[/TD]
[TD]Indonesia[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
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[TR]
[TD]Indonesia AirAsia[/TD]
[TD]Indonesia[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]59[/TD]
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[TD]China Southern Airlines[/TD]
[TD]China[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
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[TD]Strategic Airlines
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[TD]ALL SERVICES[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
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[TD]Aerolineas Argentinas[/TD]
[TD]Argentina[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
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[TD]Airlines PNG[/TD]
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[TD]Virgin Atlantic Airways[/TD]
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[TD]Solomon Airlines[/TD]
[TD]Solomon Islands[/TD]
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[TD]Polynesian Blue[/TD]
[TD]Western Samoa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
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[TD]Vanuatu[/TD]
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[TD]Hainan Airlines[/TD]
[TD]China[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
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[TD]Air Niugini[/TD]
[TD]Papua New Guinea[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45[/TD]
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[TD]Our Airline[/TD]
[TD]Nauru[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]22[/TD]
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[TD]Air Austral (a) (b)[/TD]
[TD]France[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
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[/TABLE]

 

[Oneworldplus2]

JQ Asia certainly looks good from that list.

 

[markis10]

JQ Asia certainly looks good from that list.

So does Tiger :shock: