Current Union Activity - Tide of support turned against them?

Do you agree with what is happening at Qantas?

  • I agree with the union stance

    Votes: 69 27.8%
  • I agree with the Qantas stance

    Votes: 179 72.2%

  • Total voters
    248
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I am generally left of centre, but this strike has me standing closer to the Qantas team than the unions.
Also as someone who works for an organisation that is seeing our ability to deliver services curtailed due to union salary "negotiations," I am moving further to the right on these issues.
 
I think Maca44 is spot on. The unions are slashing their own throats here ... well, at least their members throats - I'm sure the union leaders will still have a job at the end of this !!

So if the course of actions by the Unions is "slashing their own throats", what is your suggested course of action for them - "Do nothing?" perhaps.
 
So if the course of actions by the Unions is "slashing their own throats", what is your suggested course of action for them - "Do nothing?" perhaps.

In the present global economic climate, simply having a job is a huge bonus. If some jobs need to go offshore it may be a small price to pay to keep the business afloat and competitive, and keep everyone else's jobs. Sometimes doing nothing is the best course of action, but not one that unions usually understand.
 
How can the Qantas CEO give himself such an obscene increase ...
Are you certain of your facts here? I did not think a CEO was able to "give himself" a pay rise. Generally that is something that comes form the board. And in most cases, the actual renumeration a CEO of an organisation the size of Qantas will receive is very much variable based on a whole lot of defined performance criteria.

Now I am not saying I agree with his renumeration. Or that I believe he is performing well (I make no comment for or against). But to receive an increase this year over last year he must have fulfilled his KRAs as they are set in his contract. So the issues is more about the appropriate measure of performance/success as defined in his contract that one of him granting himself a payrise. To receive an increase under his contracted terms must mean that he is achieving the goals set out in his contract as defined by the board.
 
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In the present global economic climate, simply having a job is a huge bonus. If some jobs need to go offshore it may be a small price to pay to keep the business afloat and competitive, and keep everyone else's jobs. Sometimes doing nothing is the best course of action, but not one that unions usually understand.

Slashing your own throat still looks better. Any other suggestions?
 
Slashing your own throat still looks better. Any other suggestions?

Apply for work with an airline that will still be flying even if the union demands are met. Good luck with that. It won't be an Australian based airline.
 
Apply for work with an airline that will still be flying even if the union demands are met. Good luck with that. It won't be an Australian based airline.

Slashing one's throat wins the day then.

Next issue to nut out are those pesky Customs staff. Looks like their silly "cutting their own throats" strike action has failed. Those ungrateful employees should have just "Dun nuthin!". Oh, when will they ever learn:(

Wait a second........Customs staff strike a wage deal | thetelegraph.com.au
 
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Are you certain of your facts here? I did not think a CEO was able to "give himself" a pay rise. Generally that is something that comes form the board. And in most cases, the actual renumeration a CEO of an organisation the size of Qantas will receive is very much variable based on a whole lot of defined performance criteria.

Likely to have been recommended to the Board for approval by a remuneration committee (sub committee of the Board) that likely bench marks remuneration in the market.
 
Where is the vote against both? How can the Qantas CEO give himself such an obscene increase and deny the same to the rest of the work force (who are doing the hard work)? But union actions are also reprehensible and expensive to the end user. Surely there is a better way? Maybe dividing the CEO's wages up between the lowest paid?

- The CEO's package in most public companies is recommended by the board and accepted by the ownership (shareholders), not by the CEO himself
- I haven't been keeping track, whats AJ's new package? $7M? Lets get rid of the Captain of the ship for a moment and ignore the wishes of the owners, 7M$ / 35,000 (other employees) = $200ea a year each.
 
Oh well , I just knew I would get my head bitten off. Serves me right. Just for the record my post wasnt aimed at anyone in particular, I will just crawl back under my rock and stay away from this heated topic. Good reading though guys.

Don't do that. I suspect you are referring to my posted reply to your post. We're all just having a vigorous and spirited discussion here. The mods will keep things clean if anyone goes off the rails.
 
Slashing one's throat wins the day then.

Next issue to nut out are those pesky Customs staff. Looks like their silly "cutting their own throats" strike action has failed. Those ungrateful employees should have just "Dun nuthin!". Oh, when will they ever learn:(

Wait a second........Customs staff strike a wage deal | thetelegraph.com.au

No where near a fair comparison. Customs is a branch of government and therefore public service so far as I am aware. Our massive overpaid and underperforming public sector is, in fact, cutting their own throats by stealth - its the source of so much privatisation in recent years. They don't need to be profitable or even viable frankly, as they all simply lean on the public purse.

Government run monopolies are always highly susceptible to strike actions as there is nowhere else for end-users to go. If there were competing Customs branches, one run by government and one private, then I wonder if the strike action would have been successful?
 
Where is the vote against both? How can the Qantas CEO give himself such an obscene increase and deny the same to the rest of the work force (who are doing the hard work)? But union actions are also reprehensible and expensive to the end user. Surely there is a better way? Maybe dividing the CEO's wages up between the lowest paid?
I normally don't engage with 1st time posters, specially as most of them make one post and leave after getting something off their chest. However, I think this is worthy of some response and counterpoint.

Having just watched the AGM webcast and seen James Strong (Chairman, Remuneration Committee) lay this issue out in detail - the assertion that Joyce is getting "such an obscene increase" is without merit.

The claims that he is getting a 71% pay rise are false, completely misrepresent the pay structure of the companies CEO, and re-affirms QF's decision to implement a salary package of which the majority is an at-risk component.

For those not familiar with at-risk in the context of salary packages, this means that receipt of a designated amount of the salary is entirely dependant on achieving specific, measurable goals for corporate performance. Think of it as the executive version of commission based pay.

Joyce's salary package for FY2010/11 is set at AUD 6.02m, of which AUD 2.04m is cash salary. Frankly, on the basis of the work he has done to date trying to strengthen the business and diversify to improve revenue, he's earned every cent.

The remaining AUD 3.98m is only payable when Joyce has delivered against the medium and long term targets set as part of his remuneration package, which was voted on and approved at their AGM last year. I wasn't able to discern from the meeting if the allocation of ~1.7m shares (which form part of the Qantas Long Term Incentive Plan - LTIP) is reliant on the meeting of goals and forms part of the AUD 3.98m figure.

Targets set for Joyce to earn that additional AUD 3.98m and the LTIP shares are pretty steep, and include a number of metrics rating QF's performance against the ASX/S&P Top 100, and the basket of globally listed airlines. A bit more info about this can be found in the notice of meeting for today's AGM (See pg. 4, col 2).

Further, any award of shares to Joyce under the LTIP has to be approved by a vote of shareholders at an AGM. I'd happily wager that if institutional investors weren't happy with the CEO's performance, they'd be doing a lot more than voting done a LTIP motion at an AGM.

Further, let's get back to why the airline hasn't reached agreement with the engineers, ground staff and pilots union. It's because these groups are wanting to impose conditions as part of an industrial relations agreement which enshrine old and redundant work practices, and could reasonably prevent the airline from seeking out lawful opportunities to grow the company which would in turn help deliver the job security they so desperately desire.

And I've already covered the legal issues regarding this in another thread, looking at how such conditions could be a plain text breach of the Competition Act subject to the union meeting the criteria for the activities test which would enable this to be classified as restrictive conduct.

Unions in this country have for at least the last 30yrs been heavily resistant to change. We just have to look at the waterfront disputes during the 90's and the significant work done by the previous Federal Government to break apart the stranglehold of the Building and Construction unions.

I'm all for people getting job security, but what I won't, nor do I expect Qantas to stand for, is allowing these groups to hold it to ransom and acting for themselves rather than the greater good. The unions need to grow up, and realise it's high time for their industrial practices to move on.
 
Unions in this country have for at least the last 30yrs been heavily resistant to change. We just have to look at the waterfront disputes during the 90's and the significant work done by the previous Federal Government to break apart the stranglehold of the Building and Construction unions.

There was also significant illegal work done by both Patricks and the Federal Government, that was taken all the way to the High Court. The MUA (who quite frankly ARE despicable coughs) won at every stage so what does that tell you about the other side?

But back to this dispute .... actually now that I think about it, the similarities to the waterfront dispute are quite striking. Do we really want to go through that again because it ruined many people's lives?
 
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Shades of the United Kingdom 1970's. Where are the UK car and mining industries now. Was it Churchill who said the more you study the past the less likely you are to repeat it's mistakes?
 
thewinchester - what can I say? Nothing really - so eloquently put. Thank you.
JB
 
Not sure what the PHP markers are about in the above post, but anyway ... its my opinion that we have to get over the "national airline" thing. Yes, QF is a bit of a special case, coming out of its history, and yes, the company itself has played up its Aussie credentials for ever. But its not a "National Airline" in the same way that a _nationalised_ airline would be ... owned, managed and operated by the government.

Mums and Dads, Sons and Daughters, Grannies and Grandpa's own stock in QF and its a for profit business. The Aussie stockholders (and others too) have a right to expect a reasonable commercial level of return on their capital. If we were looking at 20% return year on year then fine, perhaps there is a public argument to be had... perhaps ... but this is not the case currently.

At the current rate of options issued, soon the only owners will be joyce and mrs joyce
 
Nice post thewinchester what thread did you Discuss the legal aspects?
Over in this thread, about half-way down the post: http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/qantas-frequent-flyer-program/qf-ceo-receives-cowardly-death-33464-6.html#post498848

The legal issues which might render the union's claims illegal and invalid are related to Sect. 46 of the Competition and Consumer Act (Cth) 2010, in relation to Misuse of market power. However, the application of S.46. is reliant on if the union meets the definition of a trading corporation as defined at Sect. 51(xx); and the case could be made for them meeting it thus allowing S.46 to be applied to the bargaining conditions being sought.

There was also significant illegal work done by both Patricks and the Federal Government, that was taken all the way to the High Court. The MUA (who quite frankly ARE despicable coughs) won at every stage so what does that tell you about the other side?

But back to this dispute .... actually now that I think about it, the similarities to the waterfront dispute are quite striking. Do we really want to go through that again because it ruined many people's lives?
I don't deny the similarities to the waterfront dispute, albeit that wasn't long after the Painters and Dockers became the MUA. They say a leopard can't change their spots, and the MUA is proof positive of that.

I also don't doubt there was illegal activity undertaken on both sides during that dispute, and I note that several key union members of the MUA and ACTU during that dispute currently hold positions within the Federal Govt. and party executive - which might explain the Government's reluctance to get involved.

Further, that parties platform of de-legislating key workplace reforms introduced by the previous Liberal administration, have in part removed major legislative improvements that would have prevented the dispute getting to this stage with heavily unionised workforces. We only have to look at the problems and lack of legislative framework in the US which is causing their airlines significant grief, and sending some to the abyss or the brink thereof.

The problem is that while businesses, at least on the face of it, have taken a path on workforce cooperation for mutually beneficial outcomes, certain parts of the union movement haven't figured out this is the way forward.

I won't repeat what I said in the previous post, but I am left wondering why the storeworkers and cabin crew were able to complete industrial agreements with the airline without any of the acrimonious activity occurring at the hands of the engineers and ground crew, and to a lesser extent the pilots? That's a important question which sadly nobody in the media has asked - and it needs to be.
 
I normally don't engage with 1st time posters, specially as most of them make one post and leave after getting something off their chest. However, I think this is worthy of some response and counterpoint.

Having just watched the AGM webcast and seen James Strong (Chairman, Remuneration Committee) lay this issue out in detail - the assertion that Joyce is getting "such an obscene increase" is without merit.

The claims that he is getting a 71% pay rise are false, completely misrepresent the pay structure of the companies CEO, and re-affirms QF's decision to implement a salary package of which the majority is an at-risk component.

For those not familiar with at-risk in the context of salary packages, this means that receipt of a designated amount of the salary is entirely dependant on achieving specific, measurable goals for corporate performance. Think of it as the executive version of commission based pay.

Joyce's salary package for FY2010/11 is set at AUD 6.02m, of which AUD 2.04m is cash salary. Frankly, on the basis of the work he has done to date trying to strengthen the business and diversify to improve revenue, he's earned every cent.

The remaining AUD 3.98m is only payable when Joyce has delivered against the medium and long term targets set as part of his remuneration package, which was voted on and approved at their AGM last year. I wasn't able to discern from the meeting if the allocation of ~1.7m shares (which form part of the Qantas Long Term Incentive Plan - LTIP) is reliant on the meeting of goals and forms part of the AUD 3.98m figure.

Targets set for Joyce to earn that additional AUD 3.98m and the LTIP shares are pretty steep, and include a number of metrics rating QF's performance against the ASX/S&P Top 100, and the basket of globally listed airlines. A bit more info about this can be found in the notice of meeting for today's AGM (See pg. 4, col 2).

Further, any award of shares to Joyce under the LTIP has to be approved by a vote of shareholders at an AGM. I'd happily wager that if institutional investors weren't happy with the CEO's performance, they'd be doing a lot more than voting done a LTIP motion at an AGM.

Further, let's get back to why the airline hasn't reached agreement with the engineers, ground staff and pilots union. It's because these groups are wanting to impose conditions as part of an industrial relations agreement which enshrine old and redundant work practices, and could reasonably prevent the airline from seeking out lawful opportunities to grow the company which would in turn help deliver the job security they so desperately desire.

And I've already covered the legal issues regarding this in another thread, looking at how such conditions could be a plain text breach of the Competition Act subject to the union meeting the criteria for the activities test which would enable this to be classified as restrictive conduct.

Unions in this country have for at least the last 30yrs been heavily resistant to change. We just have to look at the waterfront disputes during the 90's and the significant work done by the previous Federal Government to break apart the stranglehold of the Building and Construction unions.

I'm all for people getting job security, but what I won't, nor do I expect Qantas to stand for, is allowing these groups to hold it to ransom and acting for themselves rather than the greater good. The unions need to grow up, and realise it's high time for their industrial practices to move on.

Thanks for your excellent summation.
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Fiona
 
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