Dear John

[markis10]

A hot meal would be the minimum for me, to be frank Qf's advertising of a meal being included is stretching the truth for many flights, and hot breakfasts are good, I miss the AN omelette's. Coffee/Tea or Softdrink/Juice as far as drinks go.

 

[jsd]

One question in particular I would like to put out there to members: what's the minimum in flight product (particularly food, beverage, IFE) that you think needs to be included in the base ticket price?

Well it could go something like this:

Go! Fare - lowest fare, not flexible in anyway except for what it is now, no food of IFE included

Blue Saver - Slightly more flexible than a Go! fare, small snack such as drink and chips included

Fully Flexible - Same fare conditions as now, includes full meal and IFE

Corporate Plus - Same Fare conditions as now, includes full and IFE + all the other benefits it has now

Business Class - (Scrap the PE, it does not in the AU market, more so when you are up agianst Qantas) Same fare conditons as current PE, includes lounge access, meal and larger seats in a 2-2 config on 737 & E170/E190


Josh

 

[PaulC83]

How do members feel about that option as an alternative to adding extras into the basic fare?

Although only my opinion, I actually don't mind that sort of model. Was on an JQi flight recently where that happens (prebook stuff or just as you go on board, I was on Star Class so you could say I chose the all-in package), and I thought it worked well.

I would prefer the choice, as depending on my schedule etc. I may or may not want food, entertainment etc. In fact I have often thought that if I could buy a decent (hot) meal on QF, I would be willing to pay extra for the meal in a whY seat (but only when I thought I wanted a meal). The token offering on some flights devalues the service IMHO.

Unfortunately you won't be swinging me over until you return to ASP (I stopped flying Virgin when ASP->ADL died), but look forward to maybe getting to ride again when the AYQ flights start soon.

 

[777]

HI Dave,

Thanks for giving us some genuine questions to mull over.

One question in particular I would like to put out there to members: what's the minimum in flight product (particularly food, beverage, IFE) that you think needs to be included in the base ticket price?

A few things to bear in mind: any inclusions would not be "free" in the existing ticket price but would be priced into the ticket (both cost and lost revenue). Any phone email/txt would be at roaming rates and any wifi would likely be a subscription model in the order of a few bucks a short haul flight.

That all sounds reasonable. It ultimately comes down to value and how much you want to bundle this stuff v. sell it all a-la-carte. Say on a less than 2 hour flight you offered wifi, food (may need to look at the options there at meal times), first drink, and live to air for $10-20 for the package? I'd probably take it a lot of the time in advance. Allow me to buy the same package by swiping my credit card for a little bit more when on board and i'd think about it too.

An the interesting question is how you handle your high status passengers when you start doing this? Do they get it for free or do they buy it like everyone else? Not sure what you're thoughts are but 1/2 price for silver, free with gold, may do it? Or alternately, it allows you start offering "upgrades' and you'd be wise to do so generously given the real cost.

I could see a situation where at the time of puchase a guest selects either a "just the seat" option (and then pay as you go on board) or a more expensive "all inclusive" option with food, beverages and IFE included - sort of like what AirNZ announced for their new trans-Tasman and Pacific Island product. How do members feel about that option as an alternative to adding extras into the basic fare?

I think that is the best option -- No point in paying for things you don't need particulalrly if you need to compete with the dreaded jetstar and tiger at one end. But you need to offer it as an attractive package for all and nice bonus for premium pax and you'd go a long way to competing with QF.

I flew QF last week and reminded myself that while the product is very familiar for people its not particularly good. You don't need to do a lot to bundle together your offering to make it a superior package in many regards but it is literally impossible to do that at the moment.

cheers,

777.

 

[notzac]

I personally like the idea of a couple inclusions at any pricing level. Something along the lines of free water/tea/coffee and a packet of trail mix or similar - anything more substantial at cost. Maybe allow people to prepay a meal and a drink at time of booking, as per baggage charges?

Also - ability to pay onboard for food/bev/ife with Velocity points?

On a similar topic: For VA longhaul, 1 free complimentary adult beverage should really be extended to at least a few drinks -- I understand that you don't want pax taking the piss and drinking the bar dry, but 1 free drink is awfully stingy for crazy long flights like MEL-JNB.

 

[oz_mark]

I could see a situation where at the time of puchase a guest selects either a "just the seat" option (and then pay as you go on board) or a more expensive "all inclusive" option with food, beverages and IFE included - sort of like what AirNZ announced for their new trans-Tasman and Pacific Island product. How do members feel about that option as an alternative to adding extras into the basic fare?

Personally I am all for this, and as long as the all inclusive price came to something not exceeding the price of the Qantas bundled product, then I would start looking seriously at it. My issue is that I don't really like having my hand in my pocket having to pay for this, and for that - I prefer just to pay up front and be done with it. I do this at hotels - if breakfast is included at a reasonable incremental price I will pay up front.

Bearing in mind most of my travel is trans-continental, at present I look at the Qantas flight, then look at the others and add on luggage, meal, a drink or two and IFE to get a comparable price. ( I do appreciate the wide body issue may be more difficult for you to do something about! ). I guess there may be issues about how many drinks get included in the beverage package though!

 

[Oneworldplus2]

One question in particular I would like to put out there to members: what's the minimum in flight product (particularly food, beverage, IFE) that you think needs to be included in the base ticket price?

A few things to bear in mind: any inclusions would not be "free" in the existing ticket price but would be priced into the ticket (both cost and lost revenue). Any phone email/txt would be at roaming rates and any wifi would likely be a subscription model in the order of a few bucks a short haul flight.
CrazyDave98

Realistic pricing on food and beverages.
I can walk to Coles/Woolworths and buy a "block" of Coke which averages out at under $1 per can. I'm sure that any big business that on sells beverages, can get a better price than this. Sure, you have to make a profit, but...

IFE should be free, it's almost an industry standard. The year is 2010, not 1970.

IMO, only extra luggage and lounge access should be an option. The more options, the more complicated it's going to get (you'll turn into Ryanair, jokes). It's easy for us to speculate here in a forum, but imagine the poor FA's trying to do their job with all these options and an upset passenger, "You missed my meal, wrong meal, l ordered this, not that...etc...etc" The list goes on and on.

 

[SeaWolf]

IFE should be free, it's almost an industry standard. The year is 2010, not 1970.

Perhaps a 'basic' package could be free (included in ticket) and then you could pay for access to extra, premium channels and more movies etc. much like Foxtel on the ground.

Also, I think dropping the checked luggage fees is a good idea. They were introduced at the height of the oil price rises and in my view they've become a serious hassle. It's resulted in an explosion of carry on luggage that slows down boarding and results in crammed overhead lockers with people seriously pushing the limits of what is acceptable. I pay for the luggage pretty much every time and only carry on a small, soft backpack with a netbook, a novel and maybe a jumper for when I arrive, but often I have trouble finding space for even that in amongst all the 'barely legal' roll aboards plus bulky laptop bag that people are bringing on. Especially the laptop bags, which are often used to get around the 1 carry on rule and are crammed with far more than just a laptop. Dropping the baggage fees would at least mean that some of those people would just check their luggage instead. After that the carry-on rules should be enforced more strictly.

 

[dajop]

Whatever can be done around packaging things into flights, needs to fit neatly within corporate travel policies (after all corporates are significant source of revenue), and simple to book through travel agents. Perhaps that is one reason why QF holds sway over many corporates, no issues at all around in flight refreshments (can you claim them or not? will you get around to claiming them? etc), same with IFE.

Another thing - that is contrary to airline standards, and probably against every marketing text book - could be starting with an all inclusive price (luggage/IFE/F&B) and then discounting things back that people don't want. Have you ever noticed how in fast food places it is difficult to actually find the price of individual items? The standard being the burger fries +drink .... and you have to squint to find the price of just the burger.

I guess this doesn't work in the airline industry as everyone is looking at the bottom line price not what you actually get for that. But something like this may make it more attractive to corporates, who could just book that fare for $110/$170/$230 - whatever -through their TA and not worry about adding inclusions that may or maynot be against policy, whilst individual travellers can go onto the DJ website and get the $20-$30 discount for the things they don't want.

 

[notzac]

Also, I think dropping the checked luggage fees is a good idea. They were introduced at the height of the oil price rises and in my view they've become a serious hassle.

ISTR a comment made by someone at DJ that it actually costs more to process luggage than it does the actual pax checking the luggage in - security costs and so on.

It's resulted in an explosion of carry on luggage that slows down boarding and results in crammed overhead lockers with people seriously pushing the limits of what is acceptable.

No argument from me there. Pax will do what they can to avoid paying fees and I don't think there's an easy solution that's also financially responsible.

Thinking more about including a meal as a part of the ticket purchase process; perhaps have the ability to order "meal+drink" or "snack+drink" during ticket purchase, with actual selection dependant on what is available on the aircraft. It would need to be cheaper than the prices available on-board. Whatever it ends up being, IMHO it needs to comply with the KISS principle

I guess this doesn't work in the airline industry as everyone is looking at the bottom line price not what you actually get for that. But something like this may make it more attractive to corporates, who could just book that fare for $110/$170/$230 - whatever -through their TA and not worry about adding inclusions that may or maynot be against policy, whilst individual travellers can go onto the DJ website and get the $20-$30 discount for the things they don't want.

Does something like this not already exist? (genuine question, I have no idea)

 

[dajop]

Does something like this not already exist? (genuine question, I have no idea)

Closest I've seen is that Air Canada allows you to subtract some money if you don't want to earn FF points, but also allows add-ins for seat selection, lounge access, airport assistance and a "pre paid cafe voucher" for inflight catering.

 

[docjames]

I think all of this revolves back to a two tier strategy as a solution.

VAustralia - mainline flights (think trans-con + "golden triangle" + occasional other peak business demand flights (? mining centres), domestic could be J + Y (Intl J, Y+ + Y).
Virgin Blue - low end, Y only, add extras. Target leisure routes / off peak.

The opportunity exists then to make VA part of a true alliance (and keep DJ seperate).

You then have a two tier approach. Sure, this could be seen as mimicking QF/JQ, but that seems to be working for the market. Allows a premium to be charged on VA (base Y pricing equivalent to DJ Base Y with say 85% add on of meal/bag component charged seperately on DJ). Allow Full Velocity points on VA, Half points on DJ.

Until DJ can show evidence, my feeling is that Y+ isnt working and needs changing(unfortunate, but this needs to be accepted by the new CEO). This means making it a proper J product as many companies have policy of Y (or J when > certain distance/time) and have no policy for Y+, so that's a large chunk that will stay with QF.

For me personally, to answer crazydave's question, i'd like included:
- seat
- 1 bag
- a reasonable snack (more than pretzels!) so I dont starve if i run out of time on way to airport.

Options (extra cost)
- exit row (blue zone)
- second bag
- lounge


Some other things I'd like to see:

J class inclusions
- second bag
- lounge

Silver Velocity
- extra bag
- points bonus (similar to QF)

Gold Velocity
- extra bag
- lounge
- points bonus
- seating preference / free blue zone (subject to availability at time of booking / flight)

Also, ability to upgrade using points HAS to happen.

I'm sure all these combos are being looked at. A large part of them is similar to QFF, but one only has to look at the success and loyalty it invokes to see it works, and DJ have to have at least equivalent (and probably, better) offering. THeir current offering is NOT equivalent to most QFFers, especially those that do lots of trunk route and intl flights.

 

[oz_mark]

After my last post, I thought more about what I think should be included in the shorter east coast flights (noting before that trans-continental was more my norm). Given that, what I would like, at a minimum are:

1) Bag
2) Refreshment (/soft drink/coffee/tea/hot chocolate/water/juice and something to munch on)
3) Basic IFE
4) FF points (I know you have this now, just don't want them to go away!)

As for meals, they would be good, but I am not so swayed by a hot meal, except for dinner.
Cereal etc would suit me for breakfast, and some sandwich/wrap like service for lunch would be fine with me. (except on the trans-con services!)

While QF has varying product levels, depending on time of day (meal/no meal), sector (Cityflyer) and so on, they do have some simplicity in that on any given flight, everyone in a given cabin gets the same in-flight service (more or less). One would guess that there is some administrative overhead in a system that allows for pre-purchase options. There would also need to be some addressing of the way situations where a pre-paid option is not available for some reason, and reading other threads (e.g. rogue aircraft and PE), this does not seem to be one of DJ's strong points.

 

[DJGuy]

So VB have already indicated they are looking at 3 different classes in the one cabin, with the back end remaining as PAYG, the other 2 being a 'full service' type of service.

I would very much like to see flights on the 'golden triangle' and others, similar to the cityflyer network, be operated as all full service, and this other model can run on the leisure routes.

I don't think the idea of pre-ordering meals and drinks and IFE being an option for the entire cabin , as someone already stated, it will get very messy onboard, keeping track on who's ordered what, what needs to be handed out, who's IFE needs to be activated etc, and with the rumour being 3 crew on a -700 may be introduced, I dont think this can happen!

Much easier from a cabin management point of view if everyone can be given a drink/snack/meal. Also would make for a far more enjoyable flight for passengers, which is ultimately what this is all about. It doesn't feel good having to pay for water, or on a red eye charge for a hot tea in a freezing cold cabin overnight.


As a minimum:

• breakfast/morning flights, a muffin/yoghurt/juice/tea/coffee type of offering.
• Afternoon flights, a small fresh sandwich/roll/softdrink/tea/coffee
• Evening/Dinner, a warm meal, nothing huge, but something that would symbolise dinner, and perhaps on certain flights an afternoon/evening bar service to accompany, but I would suggest this is not essential and can be a PAYG.

It's not much, and IMO the offering need not be anything huge and spectacular, but as long as there is something?

Apparently the dinner meal trays at Qantas cost them around $3 each? Borghetti would know the costings of all of this.

As for IFE, I personally am not fussed watching something on the screen, maybe going to Perth a movie would be nice, but I would like atleast some audio channels available, and some proper over ear headsets as opposed to the ones you stick in your ear that hurt and fall out because they are too big for your ear, and that children can't use either!

Oh, and John, you might wan't to address this type of behaviour onboard too...

I can't post the link, however if you youtube pacific blue flight attendant #1 and pacific blue flight attendant #2 you will see what I mean.

Keep the ideas coming this is great and lets hope we can see a difference!

 

[Mogul]

As a long term Silver member I think more needs to be done once on board for both Silver and Gold members.

For Silver I would suggest free live to air (activated by swipping your membership card) and upgrades to Blue zone and even PE in a 3 x 3 configuration.

For Gold it would be upgrades to PE and free LTA, drinks and food. You are already giving this (food and drinks) to them via complimentary Lounge membership anyway.

For really no extra cost these ideas could easily be acheived.

 

[QF WP]

This is being done by yours truly. Please keep the "Dear John's" coming.

I was hoping that you were doing this crazydave98, otherwise I was hoping to print this out and give to Brett (if we ever get together for our drink).

 

[DJGuy]

Air NZ chief Rob Fyfe said last night the airline's 130 flights a week across the Tasman would increase to 210, which would be more evenly distributed throughout the week.
Virgin Blue would operate 70 of the flights but passengers would travel on Air NZ tickets.
Meals, baggage allowances, fare classes and aircraft would be "aligned" for passengers, who would be able to use each airline's airpoints and airport lounges.
"[Virgin Blue] haven't announced the detail yet but they've announced they're going to roll out an Airline of the Future product and we know that that is going to be very, very similar to what our product offering is," said Mr Fyfe.
"Our belief, and what our alliance agreement requires, is that Virgin's product offering and our product offering are aligned. "If you don't have product alignment it's really hard to make these sorts of alliances work."

So it appears as if the new VB Domestic product may come out to be like the new Air NZ Trans Tasman product, where you purchase different types of fares, depending on what add ons you'd like inflight.....however the NZ Domestic product is full service on all flights, according to their website.

I personally have mixed feelings about this, and would like to just see everyone be provided with IFE, a softdrink or similar and something to snack on atleast. They must be close to revealing what it's going to be soon!

 

[pauly7]

2. Domestic: If a flight is full in Y and the PE seats are empty, re-seat your high status pax. Just the room and 2 x 2 seating is enough I dont mind paying for a drink and IFE. As an example, my recent BNE/PER flight I was aisle seated in a row with a couple who were somewhat (actually very) obese. I spent 5 hours looking longingly at the empty PE seats hoping that one of your cabin crew would take pity on me, check the manifest and see I hold gold status and move me forward (no freebies, just the comfort). I am not one just to jump seats, especially up a class and I am reluctant to ask as its puts both the cabib crew in a difficult situation if the answer is no. A re-seat coming from the cabin crew would really cemented me as a DJ customer.

3Dave.

The only issue with this one is that it further devalues an already struggling product offering.

It would turn into an American airlines type of situation where people would book premium Y even less in the hope (and a pretty good chance given the poor uptake) of an upgrade. It therefore then makes the service even more unprofitable.

But from a PAX pov - for sure!

 

[serfty]

...however the NZ Domestic product is full service on all flights, according to their website. ...

Air NZ Domestic? Full Service? Hah!

Look here: Domestic New Zealand Flights - Economy - On the Plane - Air

 

[dk4]

Re: Dear John - usa a okay!

It would turn into an American airlines type of situation where people would book premium Y even less in the hope (and a pretty good chance given the poor uptake) of an upgrade. It therefore then makes the service even more unprofitable.

I would have to disagree! Virgin Blue can’t go up against Qantas, using the same business model and win. Simply put - they do not have the domestic network strength, market penetration and premium ground services available that Qantas Group has.

Unless they are going to plough a huge amount of cash into capital improvement, the US “no empty premium seats & pay for (basic) lounge access (at major ports only)” loyalty model should be a highly attractive consideration.

Qantas would find it very hard, not to respond in kind, highly impacting the profitability of their model. Surely this is a tactical opportunity where the Blues have little to lose and everything to gain? (Given Premium Economy's anacdotally poor performance.)

In relation to previous posts regarding complimentary onboard F&B – I am aware of select Virgin Blue corporate customers, who fly with a $15 onboard credit noted against their names! When Virgin Blue doesn’t under-cater a flight, the menu choice available on their airline is more appreciated by the “actual flying customer” than the take it or leave it muffin which Qantas often provides!