Downgraded from Business Class.

[MEL_Traveller]

Interesting point - the fare was advised as $7500 each. Remember, it was an open jaw BNE-xLAX-JFK, LAX-BNE.

Do the TnC/CoC state anything specifically that they could not do that?

Currently there's an 'Early Bird Sale'; Form BNE to LAX is $6005 return and JFK $7000 return.

Strangely enough a multi city returns a fare of $6505, so lets assume the subject fare was this $6505 which is $3500 for JFK and $3005 for LAX - these are the components of return fares.

Now lets say one buys this fare and travels to JFK and later on something happens at LAX and Qantas are to refund the remain fare.

Don't expect it to be $3005 ... before any refund happens the fare would be recalculated on the price for that already used which is one-way BNE-JFK - currently no less than $7818.

Even if calculated on drron's quoted $5286 for LAX it does not leave much

The wording is actually quite specific (see bolding). It is a full refund of the fare for the affected flight. Fares for each sector are listed on the booking engine at the time you make your purchase.

If there are insufficient seats in the class in which you booked, for example due to a change of aircraft, we will offer you the option to travel in a lower class or on the next available flight to your destination in the same class. If we cannot offer you suitable alternative arrangements, we will fully refund the fare for your affected flight.

 

[RAM]

....I fail to see how the continual re-hashing of irrelevant DOT regulations on denied boarding compensation is adding anything to the discussion.

Princess Fiona - perhaps if you stopped rehashing that IYHO they are irrelevant and we wait for the DoT to say whether they are would be a more appropriate response. Idle speculation is often wrong. Remember all the speculation about the 'lack of posting by EmilyP' being a good sign a Q had done the right thing...

Perhaps patience may well be a virtue in place of assuming. Getting the facts from the US DoT should resolve that issue.

 

[RAM]

Also as Red Roo said over booking is required for QANTAS to keep fares down so if your get caught in a downgrade you are taking one for the team to help QANTAS profits.

Sadly what Red Roo (Q management) say can well be in breach of the US DoT regulations. Something that Q has found repeatedly previously to its cost.

 

[RAM]

I must have missed where the 'compensation' was mentioned by Red Roo. Can you show it?

There is a BIG difference between 'compensation' and 'goodwill' and 'refund'. Given what has happened the final settlement should include all three components - each sizable and in cash not tied to Q flights as a true sign of 'goodwill'.

I agree with you 100%. No-one on here believes that the current compensation arrangements are fair and adequate. We have major concerns over the handling of the incident by the staff at LAX.
QF have stated that the calculated refund due from the downgrade has been paid to Flight Centre. QF have stated that they have had discussions regarding further compensation which so far has included the offer of points and a voucher. We haven't yet heard anything further about that.

The latest post by EmilyP does not really match your rosy description. In fact it matches much more closely my analysis of Red Roo's comment pointing the finger at the TA and that wonderful mismatch 'paid two weeks ago' with 'contacted today'.

Interestingly enough, my parents were contacted by QF about 10 minutes after I posted my comment this morning. They were advised that funds were released to them by QF on November 2nd.

That was news to my parents and the exact amount and location of these funds are yet to be determined.

FYI - this was only after the Flight Centre manager called QF to follow up directly. We won't find out until next Monday (when the batch is processed) how much the refund is.


I would hate for anyone reading this thread to be under the impression that:

1. QF have been proactively in touch with my parents regarding this fare difference refund
2. They have received a full refund

Flight Centre advised my parents again today that 'the refund will not be as much as you expect'…..

so it just seems like we are back to square one with this???????

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Princess Fiona - perhaps if you stopped rehashing that IYHO they are irrelevant and we wait for the DoT to say whether they are would be a more appropriate response. Idle speculation is often wrong. Remember all the speculation about the 'lack of posting by EmilyP' being a good sign a Q had done the right thing...

Perhaps patience may well be a virtue in place of assuming. Getting the facts from the US DoT should resolve that issue.

have you done any research RAM?

I have, people on FT have, people on reputable legal and travel blogs have. And the answer is the same. The DOT regulations with respect to denied boaring do not apply for downgrading (where the passenger still has a confirmed seat on the flight).

this is not a new issue, it's been around a long time.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Sadly what Red Roo (Q management) say can well be in breach of the US DoT regulations. Something that Q has found repeatedly previously to its cost.

The DOT position on overbooking is clear. Airlines are allowed to do it. but they must follow DOT guidelines in the event they get their calculations wrong.

 

[Pushka]

I am having a play with Mr Google and found this:

Qantas's Disappointing Response to Downgrade Debacle Raises Frequent Flyer Ire - ThreadTripping

 

[love_the_life]

Thanks Pushka. Makes interesting reading. Good to see the issue is being canvassed elsewhere. QFi is not coming up roses.

 

[DC3]

.... QFi is not coming up roses.

On the nose!

 

[Pushka]

Thanks Pushka. Makes interesting reading. Good to see the issue is being canvassed elsewhere. QFi is not coming up roses.

Almost famous.

And that is the power of social media. Consumers now have a voice.

 

[Princess Fiona]

The latest post by EmilyP does not really match your rosy description. In fact it matches much more closely my analysis of Red Roo's comment pointing the finger at the TA and that wonderful mismatch 'paid two weeks ago' with 'contacted today'.

I have not given a "rosy description", I merely reproduced factual information from the posts of Red Roo and EmilyP.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Princess Fiona - perhaps if you stopped rehashing that IYHO they are irrelevant and we wait for the DoT to say whether they are would be a more appropriate response. Idle speculation is often wrong. Remember all the speculation about the 'lack of posting by EmilyP' being a good sign a Q had done the right thing...

Perhaps patience may well be a virtue in place of assuming. Getting the facts from the US DoT should resolve that issue.

Again, I'm not "speculating idly". The issue of DOT regulations was brought up much earlier in the thread. That you don't believe the numerous amounts of information available on this issue stating that DOT regulations do not cover involuntary downgrades is your own concern.

 

[RAM]

have you done any research RAM?

I have, people on FT have, people on reputable legal and travel blogs have. And the answer is the same. The DOT regulations with respect to denied boaring do not apply for downgrading (where the passenger still has a confirmed seat on the flight).

this is not a new issue, it's been around a long time.

Yes I have researched and as posted have asked the DoT rather than continue speculation. It is their, not our, interpretation that matters but as Qantas is a repeat offender (possibly again) with a $45,000 suspended fine outstanding from not disclosing passenger rights...

Well, I will wait to see what the US DoT says. I will post it when received.

Qantas has faced multiple fines from the DoT and the last one was for not disclosing legal rights to passengers (as posted yesterday).

 

[mannej]

RAM, is it a case of do as I say not as I do?
Until you get an answer from the DOT, are you not indeed speculating yourself?

 

[EmilyP]

I am having a play with Mr Google and found this:

Qantas's Disappointing Response to Downgrade Debacle Raises Frequent Flyer Ire - ThreadTripping

Thanks for finding this Pushka!

 

[RAM]

RAM, is it a case of do as I say not as I do?
Until you get an answer from the DOT, are you not indeed speculating yourself?

Yes if you focus on the two words in parentheses, no if you focus on the other 80 words in one post. In the other most recent 4 out of 5 no speculation just let's wait and see.

To which the reply has been, "You're wrong because and restating previous posts".

Qantas has been a serial offender and paid multiple fines as well as this more serious issue.

Qantas is a safe airline but does it treat it customers in an honest and open/transparent manner?

Well the list of criminal violations and DoT Consent orders suggests the answer may be no.

Who was in charge since 2008? Who has been on the board as well over that period (and before)? Good questions that have not really got much media coverage.

[h=3]Alan Joyce (executive) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/h]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Joyce_(executive)
Alan Joseph Joyce (born 30 June 1966) is an Irish-born Australian businessman. He is the Chief ... Joyce became CEO of Qantas on 28 November 2008. He is a ...

[h=3]Qantas fined $20m for price fixing - Sydney Morning Herald[/h]www.smh.com.au › BusinessDay
Dec 12, 2008 - And despite a $US61 million fine in the US last year after admitting to its involvement in the cartel, Qantas still faces a class action brought by ...

[h=3]Qantas fined for price-fixing in Europe | SBS News[/h]www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2010/11/.../qantas-fined-price-fixing-europ...
Aug 23, 2013 - Qantas is among 11 air cargo carriers fined a total of 800 million euros ... fined it and 10 other airlines 1.1 billion US dollars for price-fixing, AFP ...

[h=3]Qantas Freight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/h]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Freight
Jump to Price-fixing case - Following the imposition of a fine of US$300 million on British Airways, in November 2007 Qantas Freight agreed to ...



[h=3]Qantas hit with $12m cartel fine - ABC News (Australian ...[/h]www.abc.net.au/news/2010-11-10/qantas-hit-with...fine/2330562
Nov 9, 2010 - It is not the first time Qantas has been hit for anti-competitive behaviour. In 2007 it was fined $US40 million for price fixing in the North American ...

 

[OATEK]

Yes if you focus on the two words in parentheses, no if you focus on the other 80 words in one post. In the other most recent 4 out of 5 no speculation just let's wait and see.

To which the reply has been, "You're wrong because and restating previous posts".

Qantas has been a serial offender and paid multiple fines as well as this more serious issue.

Qantas is a safe airline but does it treat it customers in an honest and open/transparent manner?

Well the list of criminal violations and DoT Consent orders suggests the answer may be no.

Who was in charge since 2008? Who has been on the board as well over that period (and before)? Good questions that have not really got much media coverage.

Alan Joyce (executive) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Joyce_(executive)
Alan Joseph Joyce (born 30 June 1966) is an Irish-born Australian businessman. He is the Chief ... Joyce became CEO of Qantas on 28 November 2008. He is a ...

Qantas fined $20m for price fixing - Sydney Morning Herald

Australian Breaking News Headlines & World News Online | SMH.com.au › BusinessDay
Dec 12, 2008 - And despite a $US61 million fine in the US last year after admitting to its involvement in the cartel, Qantas still faces a class action brought by ...

Qantas fined for price-fixing in Europe | SBS News

www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2010/11/.../qantas-fined-price-fixing-europ...
Aug 23, 2013 - Qantas is among 11 air cargo carriers fined a total of 800 million euros ... fined it and 10 other airlines 1.1 billion US dollars for price-fixing, AFP ...

Qantas Freight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Freight
Jump to Price-fixing case - Following the imposition of a fine of US$300 million on British Airways, in November 2007 Qantas Freight agreed to ...



Qantas hit with $12m cartel fine - ABC News (Australian ...

www.abc.net.au/news/2010-11-10/qantas-hit-with...fine/2330562
Nov 9, 2010 - It is not the first time Qantas has been hit for anti-competitive behaviour. In 2007 it was fined $US40 million for price fixing in the North American ...

All valid instances of where QF has been caught out, but a bit starting to drift a bit off topic.

I will be interested to see if DOT will respond, especially as you are not the complainant, as I think most of us worry about these sort of circumstances affecting one of us, or worse a vulnerable family member.

 

[RAM]

Interesting table, look at column 2. If this upload works...

If not -Qn how do you make images expand to a better size?

Or download PDF from:
November 2014 Air Travel Consumer Report

2014 November ATCR.pdf

Look at Table 5 page 40.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Interesting table, look at column 2. If this upload works...

If not -Qn how do you make images expand to a better size?

Or download PDF from:
November 2014 Air Travel Consumer Report

2014 November ATCR.pdf

Look at Table 5 page 40.





View attachment 37879

Can see it but it's blurry.
What is it you are referring to in Column 2 ?

 

[RAM]

Can see it but it's blurry.
What is it you are referring to in Column 2 ?

Any idea how to make it bigger?

The PDF is well worth downloading as it gives you A to Z of what you need to know about planning flights to/from the US and within the US - incredible detail.

Column 2 of table 5 is International Airline over-sales complaints lodged for the month of September 2014.

The definition is:
Oversales: All bumping problems, whether or not the airline complied with DOT oversales regulations.

Also Table 4 page 45 is very interesting, virtually every airline originating from all continents but Australia and offshore islands (NZ) are represented in complaints for the YTD a total of 2,861 complaints lodged, roughly 20% of all complaints lodged (representing a significantly larger proportion of complaints to passengers flown) YTD including domestic flights.

Is it that because in Australia (& NZ) consumer protection is so poor and the airlines ability to browbeat so great - that apathy wins the day?

Remember the Q 747 flight from the US earlier this year that got cancelled and the people were left to fend for themselves at the airport?

Apparently not one of them realised they could file (for free) a complaint for significant compensation - surely Q told them...