Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[Quickstatus]

If COMAC get their act into gear the C919 could well be a serious competitor for the Max in a couple of years. There is no doubt they will be price competitive but they also need to ensure they sort out ALL the bugs first.

If price competitive, they may not actually need to sort out any bugs. That can be sorted out when the aircraft is in business...

 

[drron]

It seems pilots in the USA have experienced problems with the 738max and the FAA knows about it.
Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw | Airlines | Dallas News

"
Pilots repeatedly voiced safety concerns about the Boeing 737 Max 8 to federal authorities, with one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient" several months before Sunday's Ethiopian Air crash that killed 157 people, an investigation by The Dallas Morning News found.

The News found at least five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database where pilots can voluntarily report about aviation incidents without fear of repercussions."

 

[RooFlyer]

Some of the speculative comments made here are amazing!

You'd be amazed that such occurs on AFF? I'm amazed.

 

[Andz]

I'm wondering if there is a natural off switch to get the computer responding. On both occasions the pilot let go of the stick - QF71 and the Lion air incident the day before where the pilot hands over to the co-pilot and shut down the anti stall system.

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/th...-leaves-pilots-powerless-20170511-gw26ae.html

 

[NZflygirl]

Joining the club...
Civil Aviation Authority bans Boeing 737 Max planes in New Zealand

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I doubt software update would be enough in this case.

I'm not so sure. All I/Os would feed to the computers and all computers would interact (I presume), so the fact they have multiple AoA sensors means at the minimum, it would be a software patch however @jb747 has expressed surprise previously that they are not triplicated, so there is apparently an argument for more than just a software patch.

So what ... What other jurisdictions do is their business.

I was thinking the ban was two fold. Firstly to protect pax and crew and secondly to protect those heavily populated areas where the aircraft may crash. Allowing the re-positioning flight(s) exposes an inherent risk (likelihood undefined) of an empty aircraft still killing many people in a crash on Australian soil.

 

[Bindibuys]

I have 3 out of 5 FJ flights in May listed as MAX (nan-cxi-hnl-nan) flights are 9 weeks away, not ready to loose any sleep yet.

 

[dajop]

Out of respect for those who perished in this tragic accident can we please avoid further discussion of personality politics.

 

[Must...Fly!]

I was thinking the ban was two fold. Firstly to protect pax and crew and secondly to protect those heavily populated areas where the aircraft may crash. Allowing the re-positioning flight(s) exposes an inherent risk (likelihood undefined) of an empty aircraft still killing many people in a crash on Australian soil.

Is that not a bit dramatic.

These aircraft need to be grounded as the issues are not understood. But how many hundreds or thousands of cycles happened since the ET crash and no problem.

I'm not saying let them fly unrestricted but holding a Fijian flagged aircraft hostage at Sydney isn't a good outcome. Wonder who would pay the fees at YSSY, CASA would have a nice lawsuit to deal with!

If the crew feel ok in flying the aircraft home empty then let them do it. EASA have implemented that policy.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Is that not a bit dramatic.

It's not up to me to decide what is or is not dramatic. The ban was put in place for a reason and the UK (as an example) allowed 7M8 in flight to land (quite obviously), but not to take off again ... so are they being too dramatic? I have no idea.

 

[NZflygirl]

I have 3 out of 5 FJ flights in May listed as MAX (nan-cxi-hnl-nan) flights are 9 weeks away, not ready to loose any sleep yet.

Fiji Airways just grounded the MAX.

But at the pace these changes are coming out who knows where things will be in 9 weeks!

 

[Must...Fly!]

It's not up to me to decide what is or is not dramatic. The ban was put in place for a reason and the UK (as an example) allowed 7M8 in flight to land (quite obviously), but not to take off again ... so are they being too dramatic? I have no idea.

Fair enough!

As for the FAA I find their latest statement to be rather...well...

I am sympathetic to their point of view, because they're not entirely wrong. But how tactless is it? And it reads like it's straight from Boeing PR (and yeah it probably is...).

There may well be nothing concrete linking the two crashes, but what if it happens again tomorrow somewhere else? This industry errs on the side of caution because it needs to. I guess the question is, what if this was an Airbus, or the Bombardier? Same style of statement? I doubt it. Hope nothing else happens while this is all investigated but the FAA will quite literally have blood on their hands if it does.
.

 

[Berlin]

Ethiopian Airlines crash: Live updates - CNN Third post from the top

 

[drron]

Ethiopian Airlines crash: Live updates - CNN Third post from the top

And what did you find wrong with these words.
"...needed, and the complexity creates danger. All of this for great cost yet very little gain. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want Albert Einstein to be my pilot. I want great flying professionals that are allowed to easily and quickly take control of a plane!"

 

[QF WP]

Out of respect for those who perished in this tragic accident can we please avoid further discussion of personality politics.

[Mod Hat on]
Agreed - I have just culled all the off topic comments.

Out of respect for the rules of AFF, please limit comment to the subject matter at hand and not politics - at least religion shouldn't get a look in[Mod Hat off]

 

[Must...Fly!]

And what did you find wrong with these words.
"...needed, and the complexity creates danger. All of this for great cost yet very little gain. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want Albert Einstein to be my pilot. I want great flying professionals that are allowed to easily and quickly take control of a plane!"

Technology tends to improve safety but there is a limit where confusion is the result. On this occasion I think they are quite pertinent comments.

Ultimately you want a pilot flying your plane, who can use computers to assist. Not a computer expert who happens to fly a plane for a living.

 

[woodborer]

Technology tends to improve safety but there is a limit where confusion is the result. On this occasion I think they are quite pertinent comments.

Ultimately you want a pilot flying your plane, who can use computers to assist. Not a computer expert who happens to fly a plane for a living.

While technology does improve safety - you do have to wonder whether some jury rigged system get around a flight stability issue is a good way to go. Quite apart from the implementation of the MCAS, one has to question whether on a properly engineered aircraft it should have been there in the first place.

 

[p--and--t]

Technology tends to improve safety but there is a limit where confusion is the result. On this occasion I think they are quite pertinent comments.

Ultimately you want a pilot flying your plane, who can use computers to assist. Not a computer expert who happens to fly a plane for a living.

Interesting you should say that.

I was thinking along similar lines and about many comments from jb747 over a long period of time where his concern seemed to be that many pilots are not equipped with the skills to adequately fly a plane on their own in other than "vanilla" circumstances without the computerised aids.

The results of the investigations into these two disasters will not be fully analysed for some time to come but my armchair recollection of what I've digested from reports on previous air-crash investigations is that there usually a suite of factors that end up with the resultant crash.

Hypothetically, and getting way ahead of proper analysis of the two incidents by people well qualified to make educated assessments, if there is an inherent flaw in the software/sensing equipment of this plane and this inherent flaw is the same thing that generated recoverable minor incident reports from half a dozen pilots to the NASA database over previous months; then potentially pilot experience/ training/ competency/ reaction time may be one of a number of the factors in the ultimate outcome of these two occurrences.

I am in no way excusing or making light of the seriousness or any defects that may or may not be present in the plane but conjecturing as to why there have been (to my knowledge) perhaps more than maybe 100K sectors flown without major incident, wide publicity, outcry, injuries or deaths.

I also well recognise the fact even 1 near miss out of millions of sectors is 1 too many from a risk to life and limb perspective.

 

[Quickstatus]

Interesting you should say that.

I was thinking along similar lines and about many comments from jb747 over a long period of time where his concern seemed to be that many pilots are not equipped with the skills to adequately fly a plane on their own in other than "vanilla" circumstances without the computerised aids.

Well there is really not much opportunity for the pilots in a FBW system to fly the aircraft in direct law (ie with no protections in place - or as jb747 calls it the Boeing mode).

Then the 200hr pilot?

 

[JB expat]

I just read a report saying the pilot had requested a return to Addis Ababa due to technical difficulties...so there goes the theory about a sudden explosion a la a bomb that some were speculating. Does it remind you of another crash? I will not be flying a 737 Max till the reports of this and the Lion Air crash are released even if it means forfeiting the fare!

I’m debating whether to write off $2000 to change a Vancouver to Maui flight. Neither USA nor Canada has grounded so out of options except self-funding change for 4 of us. It stinks. But nose diving into ground is worse.