Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[Berlin]

What did they fix? Basically they played with the software. They’ve limited the ability to continually reactivate, as well as reducing the amount (i.e. power) of the possible movement. It also now requires agreement between the two AoA systems. There were fixes to unrelated wiring systems.

I am wondering: Would these fixes by themselves have prevented those two crashes from happening or not?

 

[jb747]

I am wondering: Would these fixes by themselves have prevented those two crashes from happening or not?

Yes, I expect so. But it would still leave too many known holes open. Boeing are relying on grandfather rights, to get away with things that would be unacceptable on a new aircraft. Whilst I’m sure the 320 has a few items grandfathered, the upshot is that the Max would be approved with things that would be banned on the 320. That’s why they hang on to such an ancient aircraft as their main offering.

 

[cambriamarsh]

Yes, I expect so. But it would still leave too many known holes open. Boeing are relying on grandfather rights, to get away with things that would be unacceptable on a new aircraft. Whilst I’m sure the 320 has a few items grandfathered, the upshot is that the Max would be approved with things that would be banned on the 320. That’s why they hang on to such an ancient aircraft as their main offering.

Thanks JB, really appreciate your comments in a relatively non-technical way that lay people can mostly understand.

 

[CaptJCool]

‘All those agencies failed us’: inside the terrifying downfall of Boeing

In the damning new Netflix documentary Downfall: The Case Against Boeing, the errors and oversights that led to two crashes are examined

www.theguardian.com

 

[AviatorInsight]

What would I want?
2. Reactivation of the stab trim cutout if the control column is moved in the opposite direction. This exists in virtually every other (non FBW) Boeing aircraft, but was removed from the Max.

I had a quick look at the updated FCTM (the runaway stabilizer is now quite lengthy) and found that the control column cutout is in fact still in there.

Granted it is a combined NG/Max manual and I've only had a quick go of the Max sim so I couldn't test it out, however, we are now being rostered the Max differences course so I'll make sure I get a go and see what exactly has been changed.

The memory items for runaway stabilizer have also been updated.

 

[daft009]

Finished the doco....wow!

Wonder if the saying will change to.. "if it's 787orMax Boeing I ain't going"

 

[jb747]

Granted it is a combined NG/Max manual and I've only had a quick go of the Max sim so I couldn't test it out, however, we are now being rostered the Max differences course so I'll make sure I get a go and see what exactly has been changed.

Obviously it wasn't there for the two crashes, but perhaps they've put it back. To be honest, I'd have my doubts, and would be inclined to question the sim fidelity.

 

[Jacques Vert]

What did they fix? Basically they played with the software. They’ve limited the ability to continually reactivate, as well as reducing the amount (i.e. power) of the possible movement. It also now requires agreement between the two AoA systems. There were fixes to unrelated wiring systems.

What would I want?
1. Triple AoA system with agreement required from all three.
2. Reactivation of the stab trim cutout if the control column is moved in the opposite direction. This exists in virtually every other (non FBW) Boeing aircraft, but was removed from the Max.
3. Backup ELECTRIC trim. The days of a manual trim wheel, that does not have enough mechanical authority to move at all, at high speed, should have ended decades ago.
4. MCAS OFF switch on the coaming, right next to the master caution!

I’d probably like to hear an admission that the issue is not one of ‘stall prevention’. The aircraft obviously has an unacceptable pitch couple at high AoA and high power settings, so MCAS isn’t about making it stall proof, but all about gaining certification.

So you won't be flying BONZA?

 

[Blackswan]

Finished the doco....wow!

Wonder if the saying will change to.. "if it's 787orMax Boeing I ain't going"

I just finished the doco. Wow indeed. Whilst watching it I actively tried to remind myself there are two sides to a story - but sheesh. It seems like Boeing still don't get it - and there's been zero change to the culture. Zero remorse, zero contrition.

I'd have serious concerns hopping on any 'newly' engineered aircraft in the Boeing family for a while. I honestly think I'll be avoiding the MAX completely. The tone from Boeing puts little faith in me in terms of the MCAS issue resolution.

 

[Ansett]

Yet more trouble for the 737 Max.

MSN

www.msn.com

I will certainly be doing my best to avoid this aircraft type.

 

[straitman]

Yet more trouble for the 737 Max.

MSN

www.msn.com

I will certainly be doing my best to avoid this aircraft type.

I can’t say I am a fan however if you read the stats it’s serviceability, reliability and incident numbers are on par with other aircraft.

 

[jb747]

Doesn't everyone use Nautical Miles or is that just a pilot thing?

And I find myself just flicking between miles, nm and km without even thinking about it. I

I can’t say I am a fan however if you read the stats it’s serviceability, reliability and incident numbers are on par with other aircraft.

It’s as reliable as other Boeing types, as long as you leave out flight control issues. I’ll need to find the raw reports but if it’s still having any sort of pitch or trim issues, then it really isn’t airworthy. The real fix is for grandfather rights to be removed!

 

[There'sOnlyOneJimmy]

I’ll need to find the raw reports but if it’s still having any sort of pitch or trim issues, then it really isn’t airworthy.

Not the raw reports, but from the article:

”Former employees of both Boeing and the FAA characterised the reports — which included engine shutdowns and pilots losing partial control of the plane — as serious and with the potential to end in tragedy.

In one incident in December 2021, a United Airlines pilot declared a mayday after the system controlling the pitch and altitude of the plane started malfunctioning.”

 

[suze2000]

New Aussie budget airline Bonza seems only to be planning to use Max8s. This is a big disappointment to me as they will be flying out of BDB to MEL and that's a route I am likely to use a bit, and bypassing BNE or the 4+ hr drive to BNE would be most welcome.

 

[AIRwin]

Boeing 737 MAX makes first passenger flight in China since March 2019

A Boeing Co 737 MAX made its first passenger flight in China in nearly four years on Friday, marking a major milestone in the U.S. planemaker's attempt to rebuild its business in the world's second-largest aviation market.

www.reuters.com

 

[ethernet]

I just finished the doco. Wow indeed. Whilst watching it I actively tried to remind myself there are two sides to a story - but sheesh. It seems like Boeing still don't get it - and there's been zero change to the culture. Zero remorse, zero contrition.

I'd have serious concerns hopping on any 'newly' engineered aircraft in the Boeing family for a while. I honestly think I'll be avoiding the MAX completely. The tone from Boeing puts little faith in me in terms of the MCAS issue resolution.

If it is allowed, I would like to see every faulty part diagnosed before being wrapped up and sent back. Something like an XRAY or CT scan and differences from a baseline published.

 

[serfty]

More possible delays ...

Boeing says a new 737 Max flaw will slow airplane deliveries

Boeing said a new manufacturing flaw on its bestselling 737 Max planes will delay deliveries of the aircraft.

www.google.com

... fastener holes on some 737 Max aft pressure bulkheads were improperly drilled ...

Boeing warns new defect on 787 Dreamliners will slow deliveries

Boeing said the issue isn't related to flight safety and that 787 Dreamliner planes in service can continue operating.

www.cnbc.com

... the issue is related to a “nonconforming condition” on a horizontal stabilizer fitting