Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[Berlin]

According to CNN, a 737 Max plane just made an emergency landing at Orlando - it was on its way on a ferry to storage:

Boeing 737 Max 8 declared an emergency landing in Florida - CNN

Of course, this could be just a matter of the typical 'Now ANYTHING wrong with the Max gets reported" media reaction. The issue did, however, occur during the climb phase

 

[jb747]

Of course, this could be just a matter of the typical 'Now ANYTHING wrong with the Max gets reported" media reaction. The issue did, however, occur during the climb phase

Very much so. It’s an engine issue. These are new engines, and have had issues in both Airbus and Boeing installations.

 

[DC3]

... Of course, this could be just a matter of the typical 'Now ANYTHING wrong with the Max gets reported" media reaction. The issue did, however, occur during the climb phase

Not particularly reassuring in any case. At least it landed safely.

 

[p--and--t]

On a lighter note, totally off topic.

I just looked at the blog of a flight attendant, his quote - please calm down, we ran out of chicken, not fuel

 

[OATEK]

On a lighter note, totally off topic.

I just looked at the blog of a flight attendant, his quote - please calm down, we ran out of chicken, not fuel

The reply could be "I have spend thousands of $ to fly with you and you can't even find me a small portion of chicken".

 

[p--and--t]

The reply could be "I have spend thousands of $ to fly with you and you can't even find me a small portion of chicken".

I guess from the FA's point of view, 35K in the air and hours from departure there is absolutely nothing he/she can do to change the situation.

 

[RooFlyer]

Boeing has announced its 'fix' for the Max: BBC report

As part of the upgrade, Boeing will install as a standard a warning system, which was previously an optional safety feature.

Neither of the planes, operated by Lion Air in Indonesia and Ethiopian Airlines, that were involved in the fatal crashes, carried the alert systems, designed to warn pilots when sensors produce contradictory readings.

Boeing said in future airlines would no longer be charged extra for that safety system to be installed.

Upgrade
The planemaker has also issued an upgrade to the software that has been linked to the crashes.

The Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), designed to keep the plane from stalling, reacts to sensors which detect whether the jet is climbing at too steep an angle.

But it added that airlines would have to install the new software, give feedback on its performance, and train pilots before the changes could be certified and the planes passed safe to fly again.

In a briefing to reporters Boeing said that the upgrade to MCAS was not an admission that the system had caused the crashes.

 

[Berlin]

Boeing has announced its 'fix' for the Max: BBC report

I'm neither an aircraft engineer nor an IT expert but to me, this quickly programmed 'fix' sounds suspiciously similar to when Apple releases and iOS update to fix the issues that a previous update has caused. Too bad though if the actual problem lies with the HARDWARE

 

[RisingPhoenix]

It's not our fault you're fholiding it wrong?

I'm neither an aircraft engineer nor an IT expert but to me, this quickly programmed 'fix' sounds suspiciously similar to when Apple releases and iOS update to fix the issues that a previous update has caused. Too bad though if the actual problem lies with the HARDWARE

It's not Boeing's fault the pilots were holding it wrong?

 

[woodborer]

I'm neither an aircraft engineer nor an IT expert but to me, this quickly programmed 'fix' sounds suspiciously similar to when Apple releases and iOS update to fix the that issues that a previous update has caused. Too bad though if the actual problem lies with the HARDWARE

I don't know that it has been quickly programmed. They have been working on it since LionAir.

 

[kelvedon]

I don't know that it has been quickly programmed. They have been working on it since LionAir.

They should get Volkswagens engineers to work on it. They found the panacea for Dieselgate quickly. !

 

[Berlin]

I don't know that it has been quickly programmed. They have been working on it since LionAir.

Given that human lifes are depending on it, that seems like a very rushed job to me.

And of course it’s money and political “America First” pressure that will weigh more than safety. Had been all along in this whole debacle imho.

 

[Berlin]

Even Capt. Sully, an American aviation ‘hero’ no less, is criticising the all “too cozy a relationship between the industry and the regulators”

Capt. Sullenberger on the FAA and Boeing: ‘Our credibility as leaders in aviation is being damaged’

 

[VulpesVulpes]

I am reading bits around the internet including this thread and two things stand out, wondering what the pilots around here think....

First, a few articles suggest the natural reaction is to thumb the trim and pull back on the stick in this situation, cancelling out MACS. Is that true? Do you tend to use all available inputs when you go "Oh S***!"?

Second, the fix while not stated directly from Boeing yet (so maybe this is hypothetical) seems to centre on keeping MACS on the Trim but limiting how often and how many times it kicks in and adding a second AoA input. Presuming this is software, would you be okay with this or would you want to see it moved to another control channel?

This NY Times article happens to touch on both questions. (probably paywalled) In Test of Boeing Jet, Pilots Had 40 Seconds to Fix Error

I might be totally missing the point here, I am not a pilot, the most in-flight control I have is over what I am watching. (actually, I am a bean counter, and we are not as bad as anyone here makes us out to be, we surprisingly enough like safe landings as much as the person next to us! Blame the engineers I say!)

 

[JinbaIttai]

Boeing 737 MAX Stall-Prevention Feature Activated in Ethiopian Crash, Investigators Believe

Officials investigating the fatal crash of a Boeing Co. 737 MAX in Ethiopia have reached a preliminary conclusion that a suspect flight-control feature automatically activated before the plane nose-dived into the ground, according to people briefed on the matter, the first findings based on data retrieved from the flight’s black boxes.

The emerging consensus among investigators, one of these people said, was relayed during a high-level briefing at the Federal Aviation Administration on Thursday, and is the strongest indication yet that the same automated system, called MCAS, misfired in both the Ethiopian Airlines flight earlier this month and a Lion Air flight in Indonesia, which crashed less than five months earlier.

 

[defurax]

That's interesting, I thought that MCAS couldn't be activated at the altitude they were flying at (from this thread, maybe I misunderstood). Will be interesting to read the preliminary report.

 

[AviatorInsight]

I am reading bits around the internet including this thread and two things stand out, wondering what the pilots around here think....

First, a few articles suggest the natural reaction is to thumb the trim and pull back on the stick in this situation, cancelling out MACS. Is that true? Do you tend to use all available inputs when you go "Oh S***!"?

Second, the fix while not stated directly from Boeing yet (so maybe this is hypothetical) seems to centre on keeping MACS on the Trim but limiting how often and how many times it kicks in and adding a second AoA input. Presuming this is software, would you be okay with this or would you want to see it moved to another control channel?

This NY Times article happens to touch on both questions. (probably paywalled) In Test of Boeing Jet, Pilots Had 40 Seconds to Fix Error

I might be totally missing the point here, I am not a pilot, the most in-flight control I have is over what I am watching. (actually, I am a bean counter, and we are not as bad as anyone here makes us out to be, we surprisingly enough like safe landings as much as the person next to us! Blame the engineers I say!)

I would be happy to fly it if I knew about the feature in the first place. Knowing about the software would mean I could rule out other scenarios. I would also like a third AoA sensor put in, for a faulty one to be taken out of the equation.

In answer to your question though yes, I would use everything available to me during those “oh s***!” moments.

 

[AviatorInsight]

That's interesting, I thought that MCAS couldn't be activated at the altitude they were flying at (from this thread, maybe I misunderstood). Will be interesting to read the preliminary report.

MCAS can be activated at whatever altitude so long as certain criteria are met. The two big ones being flaps up (generally around 3000ft) and autopilot disengaged.

 

[OATEK]

More leaks ahead of the initial findings: 'Pitch up, pitch up!' - Ethiopian pilot

 

[Quickstatus]

MCAS can be activated at whatever altitude so long as certain criteria are met. The two big ones being flaps up (generally around 3000ft) and autopilot disengaged.

The altitude was so low this time compared with the JT crash - I don’t understand why the flaps were retracted at such a low altitude above ground. The aircraft (as far as I can see) flew no higher than 2400ft above ground before it....

Reports that flight control issues started to occur very soon after take off. If MCAS activation relies on flaps up and AP off, then why would flaps up occur so early in the climb - especially at a high altitude airport which has a 7600 ft above sea level elevation?