Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

Does difficulty in obtaining aircraft promptly - fat order books - play any part in formulating these attitudes?

I suspect the discount many not be as attractive if airlines run enmasse to Airbus.
I believe Price will still be king and coming late to the order book may mean a delay in their fleet additions/renewal.

They may also be able to extract further concessions from Boeing.
 
I must admit I am surprised they are still building their 53 a/c per month though.
They still have a backlog of 737NG to work through.

They kept building 787s, even when they were grounded with the battery problem. They just stored them and added the battery issue 'fix' prior to delivery once the grounding was lifted.
 
oz_mark, straitman and other AFFers, are these difficulties likely to cause Boeing medium term reputational damage among major and minor airlines worldwide, and swing buyers in favour of Airbus' (or others') aircraft, or do these buyers have a mostly sanguine view because nothing is perfect and new transport equipment usually has problems?

Does difficulty in obtaining aircraft promptly - fat order books - play any part in formulating these attitudes?

I don't think Airbus is in much of a position to do much - it's pretty much flat out. I think Boeing will have some pretty tough negotiations ahead of it, and the airlines will stick with them, but extract whatever they can out of it.

What will be interesting to watch is how Boeing pitches the NMA, and what if any thinking is being applied to retiring the 737 design.
 
That's a highly technical article, p--and--t .

The key question with such matters is whether appropriately trained and experienced government regulators believe the company, or are adamant there's an extremely serious safety issue. Wouldn't a 'Safety Review Board' initiated by Boeing lack actual and perceived independence?
 
That's a highly technical article, p--and--t .

The key question with such matters is whether appropriately trained and experienced government regulators believe the company, or are adamant there's an extremely serious safety issue. Wouldn't a 'Safety Review Board' initiated by Boeing lack actual and perceived independence?

What is concerning is they acknowledge "some people" inside the company were aware of a software issue way back in 2017, but not the right people.

Also there seems there was a disconnect between the designers delivering software designed for checking conflict between 2 x AOA but my understanding from this blog (could be wrong) sales people were selling dual AOA as an optional extra.

Oh! and they knew a software update was required - but it still wasn't delivered as at early 2019.
 
Also there seems there was a disconnect between the designers delivering software designed for checking conflict between 2 x AOA but my understanding from this blog (could be wrong) sales people were selling dual AOA as an optional extra.

The optional extra wasn't the sensors themselves (there's always 2, but really should have a third...), it was an extra to put in an AOA indicator on the primary flight display along with a disagree light also on the display to help the pilots in determining that there was an actual failure of the sensor(s).
 
The optional extra wasn't the sensors themselves (there's always 2, but really should have a third...), it was an extra to put in an AOA indicator on the primary flight display along with a disagree light also on the display to help the pilots in determining that there was an actual failure of the sensor(s).

Thank-you for the clarification. But that's sort of just as bad? Two sensors and the software knows somethings wrong but don't tell the pilot unless you pay more.
 
Thank-you for the clarification. But that's sort of just as bad? Two sensors and the software knows somethings wrong but don't tell the pilot unless you pay more.

Absolutely it is!

Having said that, we don't have an AoA indicator in the NG (again optional extra) however, we do have the disagree light. The pitch limit indicator is a dynamic flag that moves relative to the AoA on the primary flight display. We use this as a key that we are approaching the stall as it's a function of AoA.
 
I will be avoiding the 737 Max for at least a year when it starts flying again!
 
Comments from Ethiopian




Response given to recent media inquiries
Although we do not want to comment on the investigation as it is still going on and we believe it is too early to comment, we would like to highlight some factual statements based on the preliminary report of the accident investigation.
Ethiopian Airlines has the largest Aviation Academy in Africa with the most modern training devices and facilities of global standards which is accredited by all required national, regional and international regulatory agencies. Ethiopian Airlines is among the very few airlines in the world and the only one in Africa which has acquired and operates the B737 Max 8 full flight simulator. However, it's very unfortunate that the B737 Max 8 simulator was not configured to simulate the MCAS operation by the aircraft manufacturer.
Ethiopian requirement for command position is over 3500 hours which is way above the FAA requirement of 1500 hours. In this case ET302 captain has a total of over 8000 hours of which 3445 hours is on B737NG. He was upgraded to commander position with over 6500 total hours. The First Officer was a graduate of Ethiopian Aviation Academy after successfully completing the required training per ICAO standards for the Commercial Pilot License and gone through the type rating training on B737NG and Boeing recommended and FAA approved differences training on B737 Max 8 before he is assigned as co-pilot and he has exceeded the minimum ICAO requirement.
The preliminary accident investigation report, which has been conducted by a joint team from Ethiopia, USA, France and EASA, has made it abundantly clear that the Ethiopian Airlines’ pilots have followed the procedures of the aircraft manufacturer.
Any effort that is being made to divert public attention from the flight control system problem of the airplane is a futile exercise because it is not based on factually correct analysis.
The fact that the entire world have grounded more than 370 B737 Max 8 airplanes speaks loud and clear that the airplane has a problem.
It is important to refer to the safety recommendation part of the aircraft accident investigation preliminary report, which says:
SAFETY RECOMMENDATIONS.
• Since the repetitive un-commanded aircraft nose down conditions are noticed in this preliminary investigation it is recommended that the aircraft flight control system related to flight controllability shall be reviewed by the manufacturer.
• Aviation Authorities shall verify that the review of the aircraft flight control system related to flight controllability has been adequately addressed by the manufacturer before the release of the aircraft to operations.
We would also like to focus on the following facts:
• The automated anti stall feature (MCAS) was not known by airlines and pilots until after the Lion Air accident.
• Even after the Lion Air accident the bulletin released by Boeing and the FAA airworthiness directive did not mention MCAS at all.
• It was a major failure that the MCAS was designed to be automatically activated by a single source of information (Only one angle of attack sensor).
• Although the pilots followed the procedures as stipulated in the bulletin and the airworthiness directive none of the expected warnings appeared in the coughpit which deprived the pilots of necessary and timely information on the critical phase of the 6 minutes flight.
• As per the preliminary report, there is no evidence of any foreign object damage (bird strike or any other object) on the angle of attack sensor.
Since flight safety is our collective priority and should not be compromised by any means and not a single life should be at risk, we strongly believe that the recommendations made by the preliminary report should be fully implemented.
Ethiopian Airlines would like to assure all concerned that it will continue to cooperate with the investigation authorities.
 
Today's news from United...


Lemme guess... with at least two of the most experienced UA captains on the flightdeck, and maybe even a third for good measure?
 
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Today's news from United...

Well the UA chapter of the ALPA thought that existing remedies were available to the JT610 pilots. I wonder if they think the same now.
 

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