Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[straitman]

Would you expect anything else???

No as that would be the case irrespective of the 737-Max issues.

 

[defurax]

I have to say I find some of the quotes from yesterday's FAA meeting in Dallas to be very weird coming from a government agency. Basically it seems that the FAA found the meeting very positive and expect the MAX back in the sky soon. Why? Shouldn't they only base their decision on data? Shouldn't they say that there is a possibility the MAX never flies again?
I can't imagine people would accept the FDA saying that they are optimistic a drug killing people would be back on the market soon!!!
Regulatory agencies shouldn't give a f#$@ if aviation or drug companies lose billions of dollars if their products are pulled from the market.

 

[oz_mark]

'Soon' is probably a relative thing.

Boeing haven't submitted the fix for certification yet. Even after that, you will have the training to do (whatever form that takes), get the planes out of storage, so whatever maintenance is needed on planes that have been stored.

In the meantime there is work being done on the Runaway Stab Trim checklist, and whether that is correct....If they change that,it will flow back to the NGs

 

[Punky]

I have to say I find some of the quotes from yesterday's FAA meeting in Dallas to be very weird coming from a government agency. Basically it seems that the FAA found the meeting very positive and expect the MAX back in the sky soon. Why? Shouldn't they only base their decision on data? Shouldn't they say that there is a possibility the MAX never flies again?
I can't imagine people would accept the FDA saying that they are optimistic a drug killing people would be back on the market soon!!!
Regulatory agencies shouldn't give a f#$@ if aviation or drug companies lose billions of dollars if their products are pulled from the market.

The FAA has specifically said they are not working towards any given date. It will fly again when it is ready, whenever that is.

 

[defurax]

I have to say I find some of the quotes from yesterday's FAA meeting in Dallas to be very weird coming from a government agency. Basically it seems that the FAA found the meeting very positive and expect the MAX back in the sky soon. Why? Shouldn't they only base their decision on data? Shouldn't they say that there is a possibility the MAX never flies again?
I can't imagine people would accept the FDA saying that they are optimistic a drug killing people would be back on the market soon!!!
Regulatory agencies shouldn't give a f#$@ if aviation or drug companies lose billions of dollars if their products are pulled from the market.

The FAA has specifically said they are not working towards any given date. It will fly again when it is ready, whenever that is.

My point is that it is obvious the FAA shouldn't work towards a date because it's not their job to care about that. It's Boeing who want their aircraft to fly, the FAA should not care at all when (if ever) it happens.

To me this statement doesn't make any sense coming from a regulatory agency: "We are going through an incredibly intensive and robust process to make the safety case to unground the Max," acting FAA Administrator Daniel Elwell told reporters when the closed-door meeting was over. 30 Countries, FAA Meet in Fort Worth Over Boeing 737 Max

 

[Quickstatus]

I have to say I find some of the quotes from yesterday's FAA meeting in Dallas to be very weird coming from a government agency. Basically it seems that the FAA found the meeting very positive and expect the MAX back in the sky soon. Why? Shouldn't they only base their decision on data? Shouldn't they say that there is a possibility the MAX never flies again?
I can't imagine people would accept the FDA saying that they are optimistic a drug killing people would be back on the market soon!!!
Regulatory agencies shouldn't give a f#$@ if aviation or drug companies lose billions of dollars if their products are pulled from the market.

Yes as a regulatory organisation, FAA should not care whether the 737 operates again or not. Their mission is not to get aircraft flying

 

[RooFlyer]

To me this statement doesn't make any sense coming from a regulatory agency: "We are going through an incredibly intensive and robust process to make the safety case to unground the Max,"

I agree. Replace "We" with "Boeing" and it sounds OK. The manufacturer makes the case, the regulator assesses the case!

 

[serfty]

Article from NY times.

Boeing Built Deadly Assumptions Into 737 Max, Blind to a Late Design Change (Published 2019)

A system that doomed two flights was expected to engage only rarely and originally used two sensors. Critical decisions were based on those factors even when they no longer applied, employees said.

www.nytimes.com

Cliff notes:

• MCAS Originally used both AoA and G-force to activate.
• It originally would only adjust 0.6 degrees in 10 seconds.
• A separate issue was found with the MAX8 nearing stalls at low speed.
• MCAS was modified to attend to this issue as well.
• Changes were made to no longer use G-Force as an input and
• to have the adjustment rate increased to 2.5 degrees in 10 seconds.
• It is possible that the 'hidden' MCAS implementation was largely approved based on the original specs, not the later changes.

 

[AviatorInsight]

In the meantime there is work being done on the Runaway Stab Trim checklist, and whether that is correct....If they change that,it will flow back to the NGs

I'd be interested to see what changes they think they can make to the NG? MCAS activates at a faster rate only with flaps up. The only way to get that same kind of rate on an NG is with flap out and as we all now know MCAS isn't even on the NG.

 

[jb747]

I'd be interested to see what changes they think they can make to the NG? MCAS activates at a faster rate only with flaps up. The only way to get that same kind of rate on an NG is with flap out and as we all now know MCAS isn't even on the NG.

It will be very interesting to see the outcome. I wonder if there was any flight testing at all of the NG with that checklist. It could well have been grandfathered from the original aircraft. The simulator training you've done could also be using algorithms designed for models prior to the NG too.

The reason that's an issue is because the trim wheel within the coughpit was changed as part of the NG (supposedly to fit larger FMCs). That's reduced the mechanical advantage, whilst at the same time, the size of the trimable tailplane was increased; but the elevator stayed the same.

If all of that is actually correct, then it means that the certification of the NG is suspect.

Grandfathering is something that really should not be happening.

 

[Berlin]

Now there are suddenly reports about some slat defect that also affects some NG planes which scares the cough out of me.

Boeing says some of its 737 Max planes may have defective parts

Does anyone know more? What it means exactly, which airlines are affected by this?

 

[Quickstatus]

Now there are suddenly reports about some slat defect that also affects some NG planes which scares the cough out of me.

Boeing says some of its 737 Max planes may have defective parts

Does anyone know more? What it means exactly, which airlines are affected by this?

Just the leading slats (which deploy along with flaps during low speed operations to increase lift) has a potential manufacturing fault. While this compounds the optics for Boeing, its not really an issue. Parts often need to be replaced due to defective manufacturing

 

[jb747]

Just the leading slats (which deploy along with flaps during low speed operations to increase lift) has a potential manufacturing fault. While this compounds the optics for Boeing, its not really an issue. Parts often need to be replaced due to defective manufacturing

Slats are amongst a variety of leading edge devices that can be installed. Whilst they look similar to leading edge flaps, their function is not the same.

A flap normally increases the curvature of the wing, which will result in it producing more lift (and drag) at any given speed. A flap actually reduces the angle of attack at which a wing will stall, but because of the extra lift, that stalling AoA won't be encountered until a lower airspeed.

A slat sits proud of the wing, so that there is a gap between it and the wing itself. That gap is called a slot. The purpose of most slats is simply to produce a slot. Airflow through the slot tends to energise the boundary layer, reducing its tendency to break away. The effect of the slat/slot is to delay the stall, so it will happen at a higher AoA.

 

[Ansett]

This from the same organisation that said the 737 Max was safe to fly and no problems with MCAS.

The faulty parts could fail prematurely or crack. The FAA said a part failure would not bring down a plane, it could damage an aircraft while in flight.

 

[defurax]

The faulty parts could fail prematurely or crack. The FAA said a part failure would not bring down a plane, it could damage an aircraft while in flight.

I think that by now we know this means Boeing told the FAA a part failure would not bring down a plane, it could damage an aircraft while in flight

 

[kelvedon]

So Joyce is reported to be considering putting the Max on Qantas's shopping list.

Qantas boss to consider buying grounded Boeing 737 MAX

Qantas boss Alan Joyce is confident Boeing's 737 MAX aircraft will return to the skies safely after two crashes killed 346 people.

www.smh.com.au

 

[kelvedon]

... or maybe just strengthening the negotiating position with Airbus ?

 

[defurax]

... or maybe just strengthening the negotiating position with Airbus ?

Although the fact that current 738 pilots apparently only need to watch a short 60 minute video to fly the MAX might be appealing to AJ...

I also saw an interview with Ryanair's boss on Bloomberg and he was ready to buy every MAX in the world, but he's a bit like Trump, he likes headlines and attention.

 

[woodborer]

So Joyce is reported to be considering putting the Max on Qantas's shopping list.

Qantas boss to consider buying grounded Boeing 737 MAX

Qantas boss Alan Joyce is confident Boeing's 737 MAX aircraft will return to the skies safely after two crashes killed 346 people.

www.smh.com.au

Qantas will consider the MAX, just as it will consider the NEO.

 

[Berlin]

So Joyce is reported to be considering putting the Max on Qantas's shopping list.

Qantas boss to consider buying grounded Boeing 737 MAX

Qantas boss Alan Joyce is confident Boeing's 737 MAX aircraft will return to the skies safely after two crashes killed 346 people.

www.smh.com.au

Noooooho! If Qantas, after all these years, wants to really lose me as a customer for good, then they introduce this death trap into their fleet. No way in hell!