Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[jb747]

One has to wonder what issues other Aircraft in the Boeing range have been hidden by the company and the FAA. thinking 787 and now the new 777 about to be released.

What new technology is coming to the 777 and how will this effect pilot training requirements when converting from one series to the next will it too be minimal and put passengers at risk as per the 737 debacle.

Whilst I expect that everyones' trust level in Boeing is probably at rock bottom, the 777, at least in the flight control sense, is a very different animal to the 737M. The 777 was designed from the outset as a fly by wire aircraft, whereas the 737 isn't, but has had software kludges bolted on in an attempt to keep grandfathering forever. I'd be more concerned about any crossover of the 787 battery system. Interestingly, Airbus, quite pointedly kept away from lithium power packs for backup power, and kept to RATs. That's a decision to stay with an old, and heavier, technology...but one which has no safety downside.

 

[Berlin]

That's a decision to stay with an old, and heavier, technology...but one which has no safety downside.

I know which of those two manufacturers I trust more these days when it comes to "safety first mentality". Saying this- I still happily set afoot any Boeing products besides the Max. But if I have the choice, I'd always go for an A380 or A350, for comfort alone.

 

[tgh]

How the mighty have fallen..

lots of similes.. pride comes before… etc etc

 

[eastwest101]

With the benefit of hindsight now - the landing gear redesign (which they had to do for the B737-10 Max anyway) - is starting to look like a much cheaper and better option than the change of engine position for all the MAX generation and the subsequent MCAS Kludges and resultant software problems. They could have redone all the landing gear and kept engine positions and all the NG flight deck and kept it all grandfathered and would have been in production now rather than playing tic-tac-toe with newly produced aircraft unable to be delivered to customers.

Now it looks like the Max is grounded well over a year and all manufacturers and airlines will possibly lose FAA grandfathering - without the prior research into designing a competitive new generation narrow-body Boeing are totally screwed without a product for the next 10 years, this will end up in a US government bail-out for sure.

The condition of this bailout will have to be a new generation narrow-body or fast track MOM type to replace the current B737 Max production line, so we are talking a long term bail-out, or thinking left field here, and the politics of this have never been more unlikely, but maybe a licensed A320 production line to open in Renton ASAP?

 

[kelvedon]

Why did they kill the 757. Was this ever a viable successor for the 737?

 

[straitman]

Why did they kill the 757. Was this ever a viable successor for the 737?

Because there weren’t enough orders for the 757.

 

[QF WP]

Specifically noted here: The Complete History Of The Boeing 757 - Simple Flying

Boeing ends 757 production after 23 years
As sales dwindled and the entire aviation industry was rattled by 9/11, Boeing decided to end production of the 757 in 2003. At the time, Boeing believed its next-generation 737 family and new Boeing 787 would fill the market void left by the aging 757. Boeing delivered the final 757 in November 2005 to Shanghai Airlines – the 1,050th 757 built – ending the 23-year production run.

 

[eastwest101]

Specifically noted here: The Complete History Of The Boeing 757 - Simple Flying

Boeing ends 757 production after 23 years
As sales dwindled and the entire aviation industry was rattled by 9/11, Boeing decided to end production of the 757 in 2003. At the time, Boeing believed its next-generation 737 family and new Boeing 787 would fill the market void left by the aging 757. Boeing delivered the final 757 in November 2005 to Shanghai Airlines – the 1,050th 757 built – ending the 23-year production run.

That seems to be the consensus view - nothing wrong with the 757 at all (1000+ aircraft produced does not equal a failure) - its just that the customers/airlines didn't want to order it because they thought the B737 and A320 could do everything, a lot of airlines developed a ridiculous fixation on frequency over capacity without thinking through the consequences, and at the time they thought that the B787 could be a B767 and B757 replacement. As it turned out, the B737 and A320 family couldn't do everything (albeit the A320 XLR is now coming close) and it seems to me that the B787 arrived too late with too much range, weight and cost so weirdly the customers themselves sort of stuffed up the "middle of the market" market and now they have limited choices to go forward from here.

I wouldn't think that Airbus would be totally rejoicing in this either because they have their own political problems and can't seem to increase production of the A320 to meet the market so they have their own issues to sort out.

 

[Ansett]

Boeing 737 Max Troubles Add Up: $8 Billion and Counting

Wonder what the cost to develop a new plane would have been?

 

[serfty]

Bloomberg News - Ralph Nader Says Boeing 737 Max Is Flawed and Should Never Fly Again

Consumer advocate Ralph Nader said the larger engines mounted to the Boeing 737 Max represented a design flaw and called for the plane to be permanently grounded.

The 737 Max “must never fly again,” Nader said. “It’s not a matter of software. It’s a matter of structural design defect: the plane’s engines are too much for the traditional fuselage.”

Speaking at an aviation safety event in Washington, Nader lambasted Boeing Co. for designing the 737 Max as yet another revision to an airframe that was first built in the 1960’s, rather than designing a new plane from scratch.

In reference to Boeing's Top leaders, he indicated they should resign:

“Good heavens, they would’ve resigned in 24 hours in Japan out of shame.”

 

[serfty]

More from Bloomberg: Boeing Has Friends in High Places, Thanks to Its 737 Crash Czar

The crashes of two Boeing Co. 737 Max jetliners have put the aerospace giant on a perilous course through multiple U.S. investigations. But as it faces off against the government, Boeing will be dealing with a lot of familiar faces.

The myriad personal connections between the U.S. plane-maker and top officials were hinted at when Attorney General William Barr bowed out of a criminal investigation of the plane’s design and certification. Barr cited his past affiliation with Kirkland & Ellis LLP, a longtime legal adviser to Boeing that’s now helping with its defense in the matter. ...

 

[straitman]

Bloomberg News - Ralph Nader Says Boeing 737 Max Is Flawed and Should Never Fly Again



In reference to Boeing's Top leaders, he indicated they should resign:

The discussion on Nader came up in post #1020 and was summed up by jb747 in post #1026.

Nader is just a distraction.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

To be fair, Airbus seems to have its own problems. Came across this courtesy of flightglobal: Flight-control refinement to fix A321neo pitch-up issue

Extract:

FlightGlobal has learned that issue – which can result in excessive pitch-up – only affects the A321neo in particular remote conditions when combined with specific commanded manoeuvres.

Four conditions are required. These comprise a low approach altitude, below 100ft, in a specific landing condition, with the aircraft characterised by a particularly aft centre-of-gravity, and the crew engaged in performing a dynamic manoeuvre – such as a go-around.

Under these conditions the aircraft could enter a pitch-up situation which EASA has described as "excessive".

 

[Ansett]

Boeing could suspend 737 Max production if the planes' return is delayed further, sending stock lower

Boeing posted its largest-ever quarterly loss due to the worldwide grounding of the 737 Max.

www.cnbc.com

This is going to cost Boeing an absolute fortune.

One has to wonder how long the board and key senior executives will hold the job for?

 

[kpc]

Is there a slim chance the 737 Max does not fly again commercially?

 

[Mogul]

Is there a slim chance the 737 Max does not fly again commercially?

Until it is back flying the answer would be Yes.

I think it is a real possibility that certain countries won't let the MAX fly in their airspace again.

 

[QF WP]

@kpc, I think the chances are slim, although Boeing is confident enough to still be running the production line, so they are confident of receiving FAA approval (and other countries peak airline safety bodies) after the software has been fixed. The issue still remains of the oversize engines versus the standard airframe, which will give I'm not sure adn couuld that also e a factor in the re-approval. This story very similar to the CNN one above, but by Reuters: Boeing posts biggest loss on 737 MAX, may have to halt production...

 

[RooFlyer]

The guy I think in charge of the MAX project has recently 'retired'.

 

[Berlin]

The guy I think in charge of the MAX project has recently 'retired'.

Haha, "retired"

 

[Ansett]

I am sure the 340 odd dead people would have preferred that he had retired years ago................