FWA: Some reduction in Sunday/PH rates for some Industries

[wandering_fred]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

...
As for increasing jobs, not a chance. If a company could make more money by haing staff rostered on then they would already do it once there is a return on investment, i.e. wages cost is offset by profit from sales. If they're not doing this now then they deserve to go broke.
...

While that may (or may not) be true in urban environments, it remains to be seen in regional and rural. And those areas are in more trouble from unemployment. I should note that regionally we have extremely limited Sunday shopping, so the Coles and Woolies 150% on Sunday doesn't apply (or aggravate people) except over the end of year holiday season.

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[Simsy85]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Gobsmacking isn't? I can't believe some of the people here taking the attitude 'why should you get paid more to work on the weekend' or 'if you don't want to work it, don't'.

It must be nice, up there on your high horse. These are people we are talking about. Real, live people.

They work these hours because they need the money.

This ruling doesn't create more jobs, it attacks the lowest paid workers in our society.

Pathetic.

 

[Deleted member]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Surcharge will likely stay as the reduction in penalty rates isn't that significant.
with customers looking for low prices, and employees looking for high wages, there isnt much wriggle room in the middle.

I hope businesses take away the surcharge for Sunday's and also or is it a business gouge for the store owners.

 

[Deleted member]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

I get your point, however there are too many business's who are having to pay "skilled" employee rates for "unskilled" employees.
I'm sure somebody will know the answer to this question. it is a chicken egg question, and it goes like this:
did penalty rates start to compensate people for having to work weekends, or to "encourage" people to work weekends? (and insert PH's in there as well) .
I only ask because i know of a number of restaurants who will NOT open on a Sunday because it is uneconomical to do so.
I know specifically of a restaurant in BNE which closes for the Christmas break (5 weeks) because it's way too much aggravation to open, so everyone goers on holiday at the same time.

Gobsmacking isn't? I can't believe some of the people here taking the attitude 'why should you get paid more to work on the weekend' or 'if you don't want to work it, don't'.

It must be nice, up there on your high horse. These are people we are talking about. Real, live people.

They work these hours because they need the money.

This ruling doesn't create more jobs, it attacks the lowest paid workers in our society.

Pathetic.

 

[Moopere]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Gobsmacking isn't? I can't believe some of the people here taking the attitude 'why should you get paid more to work on the weekend' or 'if you don't want to work it, don't'.

It must be nice, up there on your high horse.

High horse? What are you implying? Slavery? Everyone can leave a job at any time... but ...

These are people we are talking about. Real, live people.

They work these hours because they need the money.

Well then, thats actually a conversation about the insufficiency of the minimum wage. If these same people had a job in a shop that didn't traditionally work the weekends then they'd be stuffed? Right? Can't get by without double time on Sunday? Well, if the shop isn't open on Sunday then that means big big trouble.

This ruling doesn't create more jobs, it attacks the lowest paid workers in our society.

Well yes, its pretty hard to see employment rising as a result in the immediate term - was that the intent? I don't actually know. If people were really serious about trying to boost employment via the route of lowering costs to employers then the 6% (in WA) payroll tax would disappear, that alone would have a far greater impact that fiddling about with the lowest paid workers entitlements.

 

[wandering_fred]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

...
Well yes, its pretty hard to see employment rising as a result in the immediate term - was that the intent? I don't actually know. If people were really serious about trying to boost employment via the route of lowering costs to employers then the 6% (in WA) payroll tax would disappear, that alone would have a far greater impact that fiddling about with the lowest paid workers entitlements.

The pubs and restaurants in country areas that don't open (or open less or open only staffed by owners) likely do not come anywhere near the WA threshold for payroll tax.

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[Simsy85]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

High horse? What are you implying? Slavery? Everyone can leave a job at any time... but ...

Yep it's so damn easy just to leave a job... I've got news for you mate, unemployment is a real thing - the rates? don't tell the true story when you consider this Govt counts working 1 hour a week as 'employed'.

If you think it's so easy just for people to leave a job (in these low paid industry where all they have is their labour) then you clearly are the one on a high horse.

There is a reason our IR system in this country is based on the Masters and Salves Act....

Well then, thats actually a conversation about the insufficiency of the minimum wage. If these same people had a job in a shop that didn't traditionally work the weekends then they'd be stuffed? Right? Can't get by without double time on Sunday? Well, if the shop isn't open on Sunday then that means big big trouble.

This comment just shows you don't *actually* understand how awards/minimum wage payment work. This decision affects people who are on awards. There pay rates are set by that award. This decision goes to the % factor of the award rate (minimum wage in your terms) for working unsociable hours.

As for your other comment - are you basically arguing they should shut up and just be thankful they have a job? I guess you probably think WHS laws are overrated too...

Well yes, its pretty hard to see employment rising as a result in the immediate term - was that the intent? I don't actually know. If people were really serious about trying to boost employment via the route of lowering costs to employers then the 6% (in WA) payroll tax would disappear, that alone would have a far greater impact that fiddling about with the lowest paid workers entitlements.

Again, showing your poor understanding of how Australia's industrial relation system works. Payroll tax = State jurisdiction. FWA = Federal Govt Agency

 

[Moopere]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

This comment just shows you don't *actually* understand how awards/minimum wage payment work. This decision affects people who are on awards. There pay rates are set by that award. This decision goes to the % factor of the award rate (minimum wage in your terms) for working unsociable hours.

Despite how excited your tone appears - I'd still respond to the above by saying ... there is unhappiness with the award rate then? Award rates _are_ meant to be the safety net that provides for 'minimum' wage, given a defined occupation. I can't understand why an hour isn't an hour? On any given day or night? I worked shift work for years when I was younger, and no, there wasn't a choice, I was bonded (defence force), everyone else, not bonded, does ultimately have a choice. It might be a nasty choice, but its a choice nonetheless. Oh, and I never received, nor expected to receive, any 'extra' compensation for working odd hours. An hour worked is surely an hour worked? Surely? The perceived nastiness of a job or location is what, ultimately, contributes to the definition of a wage - do the mining companies in north WA feel largess towards their work force? Is that why the compensation is so high?

As for your other comment - are you basically arguing they should shut up and just be thankful they have a job? I guess you probably think WHS laws are overrated too...

My other comment is absolutely not that. Its a question. If you had a job at a pub (for example), and the boss never rostered you to work on a Saturday or Sunday but you still completed say 40 hours a week then you'd never gain the 1.5x or 2x pay rate. If you _need_ this money to survive ... what would that mean?

Again, showing your poor understanding of how Australia's industrial relation system works. Payroll tax = State jurisdiction. FWA = Federal Govt Agency

sigh.

Yes I know that. But I was obviously referring to the notion that these new FWA law changes were supposedly, at least partially, constructed to promote employment. My comment was that removal of payroll tax = more scope for more employment. It doesn't matter to the owner of a business if payroll tax is federal or state, they have to pay it regardless, and it just makes a further, sometimes significant barrier to putting someone on and my argument was that this would have a far greater effect than fiddling around the edges of small service/hospitality industry wages on given days.

 

[mushez]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

As someone who does work in a 24x7 industry on all days and at all hours I wish it was so easy.

My health suffers working these hours. I am limited on what I can do at times. e.g. if I finish at 4.00am I can't go shopping, see my regular GP, access many services etcetera. Accessing other professional services see me missing sleep, which carries health risks.


Television is rubbish and I either get the last version of the newspaper or none at all when I wake up.

Family events, forget about them. I work virtually every weekend unless planned months in advance.

My penalty rates are included in my base rate so this decision doesn't affect me, yet.

And amazingly politicians and senior members of companies aren't going to lose any money or benefits. Their hypocrisy is amazing but not surprising afterall they know better than us and don't hesitate to tell us.

As for increasing jobs, not a chance. If a company could make more money by haing staff rostered on then they would already do it once there is a return on investment, i.e. wages cost is offset by profit from sales. If they're not doing this now then they deserve to go broke.

Or maybe they need to address the real issues, shopping centre landlords are rapacious in their demands for money but this hasn't been addressed.

The franchise model allows franchisees to avoid paying wages with near impunity. Not being addressed with any real vigour because the franchisors are still getting their fees.

Many companies don't pay compulsory superannuation, again with impunity because it's not a crime.Just some slight embarrassment for the company.


The attacks on workers are increasing and will hurt society in ways that will cost us so much more than the wages saved.

I couldn't sum up the Theory behind loadings in wages and what they are compensating one for when they are required on a contractual basis to work outside the norm of M-F, 9-5.

An hour worked at night, is not the same worked during the day, if your sleep is broken to get normal personal activities done during business hours - or you pay a premium for a 3rd party service to assist you to get them done because you must rest.

 

[mushez]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

I can't understand why an hour isn't an hour? On any given day or night? I worked shift work for years when I was younger

I think you answered yourself right there, younger, plus no longer do. <redacted>

Industrial area Finishing at 4am on a Sunday night vrs 4pm on a Thursday afternoon - you have a wife/husband - 3 kids, and can only afford one car.

Thursday afternoon, you can get public transport home, you have $5 sub lunch specials from Subway for Lunch as an option, and can try to plan to get a 5pm Doctors appointment to fit in on your way home.

Sunday 4am, there is no public transport - so are either depriving the family of a car from 6pm Saturday when you left for work - not to mention your kids don't get to see you at your best during the weekend, as you slept all day Saturday prior to going to work, nor will they see you much on Sunday either. Your food options are limited, and poor food choices are made as a result. And that Doctors appointment, still have to try to slot it in around 5pm, just after you wake up, and before you get to do your shifts - but it must be during the week, and around negotiating with the partner about getting the kids picked up, what day they don't have any after school activities, so you can jump in it as soon as they pull in the driveway and off to do what you need to do prior to starting your shift.


For the company, an hour is an hour worked, because the same results occur - so the question is why for the company does that have to take place at 2am on a weekend, vrs 2pm on a weekday? Two answers, it is time critical and must be done at that time - e.g. Flight Controller - or 2nd is because they do have a day shift, and rather than build more plant, are trying to double output out of same plant by working around the clock.


That hour at 2am, is more detrimental and costly for the average employee than one at 2pm. As such, the employer should reimburse the employee for the extra detrimental costs.

For some, yes - working at night works for their personal situation. However they are unique and not the norm, and they simply are winners out of the whole situation or so they might think at the time and in reflection upon not doing those hours long enough to find it detrimental to them.

 

[mushez]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

I'm sure somebody will know the answer to this question. it is a chicken egg question, and it goes like this:
did penalty rates start to compensate people for having to work weekends, or to "encourage" people to work weekends? (and insert PH's in there as well) .

Penalty Rate (AKA Loadings) are more often negotiated historically from Union's going in to negotiate for staff who find they are worse off under certain circumstances. E.g. working at 2am vrs 2pm

Annual Leave is one of my pet situations, because I got screwed over by this one 20 years ago in my mind, young apprentice in NZ working 80 hours a week, agreed to no loading for overtime, and income halved when I went on forced annual leave to 40 hours and employer laughing at me while explaining the situation. It still surprised in Australia the situation is not fixed in law, as it has been in New Zealand - which in NZ did away with the justification for loadings on annual leave when they did and rare to find any in NZ.

In Australia, you have in law 4 weeks annual leave entitlement. In New Zealand you have 4 weeks annual leave entitlement with monies to be paid out to be a separate entitlement that builds up of 8% of gross earnings.

If you do 38 hours a week in both NZ & AU, in NZ annual leave will pay out at 38 weeks worth, and in AU with annual leave loading (17.5% off the top of my head) , you will get 44.65 hours paid out when you go on annual leave for a week. However if you do 60 hours a week on average for a year in both NZ & AU, legally in AU you will still only be paid the 44.65 hours when you go on holiday, as today in NZ you will be paid out 60 hours the week you are on holiday. This is because in AU, it is still around historic references to a week being 38 hours, and that is all that is due, plus annual leave loading - come time to take annual leave. When working overtime, you DON'T get any extra compensation in annual leave payments under law for doing so, unless you negotiate it differently in your agreement - so this situation must be addressed, and is addressed with loadings for overtime at the time of working in excess of 38 hours.

Loading for overtime - time and half for 38-40 hours, and double time for 40 plus hours, came about through unions going in to get reimbursements for members of holiday pay they would never get otherwise come holiday time + the extra income tax paid, as the extra hour wouldn't have 20% PAYG taken off it, but more like 30-50%. So $10 per hour normally, less (20% PAYG) $2 per hour would net the employee $8 in the hand for horus 1-38 in a given week. Hour of overtime at $15 per hour, less 40% for tax is $9, less 8% for annual leave = $8.33 per hour. So with time and a half in that very real situation, the employee only benefits 33 cents extra per hour in the hand on a per hour basis for the 39th hour, than they did for their 38th hour of the week after all factors are taken into consideration - and is a situation present for each and every Australian worker today with no legal entitlement for annual leave on any overtime worked, plus that extra hour is taxed at a higher rate of tax than your first hour of the week.



All Loadings and entitlements, around working into the nights and weekends - it is all historically negotiated by unions and accepted as being fair by someone at some time, for some reason of equity after workers have found it to be not fair and pressed for it.

 

[whatmeworry]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Nick Hanauer on how to fix inequality.

[video=youtube;bBx2Y5HhplI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBx2Y5HhplI[/video]

 

[whatmeworry]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Liberal mp Ann Sudmalis has described the penalty rate cut as a 'gift' to young people.

Ms Sudmalis has welcomed last week’s Fair Work Commission ruling that penalty rates for workers in the retail, fast food, hospitality and pharmac_ industries would be reduced.

Penalty rate cuts ‘a gift’ for young people: Sudmalis | Illawarra Mercury

 

[Dr Ralph]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Liberal mp Ann Sudmalis has described the penalty rate cut as a 'gift' to young people.



Penalty rate cuts ‘a gift’ for young people: Sudmalis | Illawarra Mercury

As a the member for Gilmore, Ann Sudmalis is well regarded in the community and generally right on the money with her forthright comments.








NOT!

 

[whatmeworry]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

As a the member for Gilmore, Ann Sudmalis is well regarded in the community and generally right on the money with her forthright comments.








NOT!

She actually cried in parliament today...

Scot Morrison and Treasury have 'no opinion' if the penalty rate cuts will create jobs.

So FWA or Treasury did no modelling for these cuts other then relying on this:

In justifying its decision, Fair Work cited a Productivity Commission submission to conclude: "There are likely to be some positive employment effects from a reduction in penalty rates, though it is difficult to quantify the precise effect."

Scott Morrison and Treasury experts have 'no opinion' on penalty rate cut

A rise in the minimum wage in New York is predicted to have positive effects.

“We looked carefully at both sides of the equation, the effects on businesses and the effects on workers. Businesses will adapt,” said study lead author Michael Reich. “Efficiencies and turnover saving will offset a good part of the wage increases and modest prices increases – spread across all consumers — will cover the rest. The increased consumer spending from the higher wages will generate more business and jobs.”

Study sees positive impact of raising New York’s minimum wage to $15 an hour | Berkeley News

 

[whatmeworry]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Turns out all those business groups advocating for penalty rate cuts aren't open on a Sunday.

The argument is self-evident: weekend penalty rates are out-of-kilter because in a modern, secular, 24/7 economy, Sunday has become just like any other day.
So why pay loadings for hours that are no longer unsociable - no longer deleterious to family and home life?


Here's one reason. Because, it turns out, the loudest, clearest proponents of this change take a different view about their own leisure time.
Indeed, these new-economy warriors guard their Saturdays and Sundays so jealously, they close their offices on the weekend to guarantee quality family time.

In the spirit of this 24/7 economy, Fairfax Media telephoned the switchboards of the main groups on Sunday afternoon: the Institute of Public Affairs, Business Council of Australia, the Australian Industry Group, the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, and even the small enterprise body, the Council of Small Business Australia also known as COSBOA.
And guess what? No answers. Not one of these offices - unless you consider an answering machine as service - was open or staffed on a Sunday afternoon.

'Our offices are unattended': Don't call peak business groups on the weekend

 

[trooper]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Some of the responses here would lead one to believe penalty rates have been abolished. Isnt it true that these reductions have generally been 25%...with some (from 200%) at 50%?

The point has been made that some "hours" deserve more compensation than others...... OK.. but is 150% reasonable? No? Why not? That is, I feel, the real question.

Of course I'm ex Navy....and recall talking to my (current) work colleagues about the Gulf deployment I was on from Oct 1990- Apr 91... and how I averaged around 18 hours a day for most of that....

The response from one... "Wow...the OT must have been terrific!"...... Umm... yeah.... sure.....:mrgreen::mrgreen:

Now... if you are going to say "well... you joined voluntarily"......I hope you are not ALSO going to object to similar comments about people in hospitality etc....that would be a touch hypocritical...no?

 

[whatmeworry]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Some of the responses here would lead one to believe penalty rates have been abolished. Isnt it true that these reductions have generally been 25%...with some (from 200%) at 50%?

The point has been made that some "hours" deserve more compensation than others...... OK.. but is 150% reasonable? No? Why not? That is, I feel, the real question.

Of course I'm ex Navy....and recall talking to my (current) work colleagues about the Gulf deployment I was on from Oct 1990- Apr 91... and how I averaged around 18 hours a day for most of that....

The response from one... "Wow...the OT must have been terrific!"...... Umm... yeah.... sure.....:mrgreen::mrgreen:

Now... if you are going to say "well... you joined voluntarily"......I hope you are not ALSO going to object to similar comments about people in hospitality etc....that would be a touch hypocritical...no?

Military has base pay plus things like combat pay plus very good health benefits like Dental.

 

[drron]

Sorry my usual ploy of googling the title of an article in the Australian doesn't seem to work.By Grace Collier who did come from the Union ranks.So an article which quotes that article-
Workers Dudded By ALP Strategy - Grace Collier, The Australian - JIM BALL

These are interesting points-

Labor also gave the commission, for the first time in history, the power to cut penalty rates. In fact, Shorten moved a special amendment to the legislation that made cuts to penalty rates possible. The five commissioners who made the decision were all appointed by Labor. Three of them were appointed by Shorten.


So, to sum up, a Labor initiative, aided by a special Labor amendment, run by a panel of Labor appointees, with the majority of those appointees, handpicked by Shorten, has led to a decision that gives Labor the opportunity to wage a massive Work Choices-style campaign against the government.



What an astonishing set of circumstances and how convenient for Labor.

The SDA covers workers in the pharmac_, fast food and retail sectors and its EBAs are negotiated with the largest employers in the country, covering most workers in the various sectors. The SDA has almost 50 EBAs listed on its website. Not one of these EBAs has Sunday rates at double time.


Three have no weekend penalties. Sunday rates mostly range from time-and-a-half to ordinary time. The base rates of pay do not appear high enough to compensate for the loss of penalties. It is hard to see how these EBAs would pass the “better off overall” test.



Many of the EBAs contain clauses requiring the employer to push workers into the union. Workers have been denied a choice of superannuation fund and forced into the union fund. I am at a loss to explain how these agreements were approved by the Fair Work Commission.

 

[eastwest101]

Re: The totally off-topic thread

Turns out all those business groups advocating for penalty rate cuts aren't open on a Sunday.

'Our offices are unattended': Don't call peak business groups on the weekend

Turns out that someone mentioned in the comments section that they called Fairfax Media on a Sunday afternoon, and the phone wasn't answered with some people from Fairfax not at work on Sunday afternoon - the same spurrious apples and oranges argument that Mark Kenny from the Age made....