General Coronavirus chit chat thread - non-travel specific

[MEL_Traveller]

Because they currently experience it in multitude of situations? There simply is not a never ending supply of ICU beds.

There aren't. But how wide are we going to cast the ethics net then? Two beds in the ICU: a 20 year old drop out, a 70 year old retired nurse, both with severe covid. In comes a 30 year old domestic violence perpetrator from a car accident.

But reflecting on that article, perhaps I should give the doctors the benefit of the doubt. If they just want guidelines, they should be happy if those guidelines are as simple as simple as 'first come, first served'.

 

[mrsterryn]

I have no desire to die I like my life however if there is two ventilators and one is someone who is younger than me ....I won't take it. I am not that old in the scheme of things but I have enjoyed life
Dementia was mentioned earlier and fully agree Do Not do extraordinary measures to keep me alive if I have full blown dementia
On the covid side of things the younger person I would hope would also have a better recovery than I.
Our family , albeit quite small, is well aware of my husband's and i views in maintaining life over quality. Don't do it
Also edited to add husband with a benign brain tumour. Over time the effect will be significant mobility restrictions no cognitive , so he wouldn't be high on the list for ventilator if a choice had to be made. He also would agree with that

 

[Hvr]

There aren't. But how wide are we going to cast the ethics net then? Two beds in the ICU: a 20 year old drop out, a 70 year old retired nurse, both with severe covid. In comes a 30 year old domestic violence perpetrator from a car accident.

Of course triage principles also need to be considered;
1) who will die regardless of any treatment being provided,
2) who will survive with treatment, and
3) who will live without treatment.

Therefore. people in group two would be treated first. Group one would be provided palliative care, although euthanasia would be more cost effective. And people in group three would either be treated with remaining resources as required or return home.

A very simplistic comment on highly complex matters and doesn't consider emotions.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Of course triage principles also need to be considered;
1) who will die regardless of any treatment being provided,
2) who will survive with treatment, and
3) who will live without treatment.

Therefore. people in group two would be treated first. Group one would be provided palliative care, although euthanasia would be more cost effective. And people in group three would either be treated with remaining resources as required or return home.

A very simplistic comment on highly complex matters and doesn't consider emotions.

All valid points which we didn't even start to look at!

The previous scenarios are based on everyone being in category 2... that they will all survive if given access to the same treatment.

 

[p--and--t]

Of course triage principles also need to be considered;
1) who will die regardless of any treatment being provided,
2) who will survive with treatment, and
3) who will live without treatment.

Therefore. people in group two would be treated first. Group one would be provided palliative care, although euthanasia would be more cost effective. And people in group three would either be treated with remaining resources as required or return home.

A very simplistic comment on highly complex matters and doesn't consider emotions.

Unfortunately you left out

4. Who wants to be treated.

 

[drron]

And a new test combining Covid,Influenza A and B plus RSV.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

And an interesting article on genomic testing in Boston.At least 80 different introductions to the city but one third of cases linked to a super spreader event at a biotech conference.

Genome Data Help to Track COVID-19 Superspreading Event

When it comes to COVID-19, anyone, even without symptoms, can be a “superspreader” capable of unknowingly infecting a large number of people and causing a community outbreak. That’s why it is so im…

directorsblog.nih.gov

 

[Pushka]

Two beds in the ICU: a 20 year old drop out, a 70 year old retired nurse, both with severe covid. In comes a 30 year old domestic violence perpetrator from a car accident.

As per the child in the article referenced by drron, the 30 year old gets the scarce resource if that is the choice that must be made.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

As per the child in the article referenced by drron, the 30 year old gets the scarce resource if that is the choice that must be made.

Maybe the child wouldn't have the same view if they were the victim of family violence?

Thank goodness we didn't need to have the debate in Australia. To me, avoiding the debate justifies any economic hardship that is being endured.

If guidelines are to be drawn up, they should go to a national vote/plebiscite.

 

[Pushka]

Maybe the child wouldn't have the same view if they were the victim of family violence?

But now you are making your own moral judgements as to the worthiness of life. I totally understand your point of course, but that cannot be a criteria for anything medical.

 

[p--and--t]

Well at least my rellies won't likely have to argue with anyone that I need the ventilator more than anyone else.

No resus for me if things get that serious.

Quality of life is number one in a list of one priority.

I have made it well known that if there is a chance I won't come out the other side a fully functioning person mentally and physically as immediately before any event no action is to be taken to prolong life. All emphasis is to be on a quick and pain free end.

 

[k_sheep]

The swiss have some sombre reading regarding ICU triage guidelines ....

Intensive care medicine

SAMS – Swiss Academy of Medical Sciences

www.samw.ch

 

[MEL_Traveller]

But now you are making your own moral judgements as to the worthiness of life. I totally understand your point of course, but that cannot be a criteria for anything medical.

So the sole indicator should be age? So our high court judges, surgeons, world-class medical pioneers... all lose out to an 30 year old interpretive dance practitioner? Tough call!

Obviously we are going to need guidelines. The problem will be finding the ones that are fair. Or if not 'fair', then chosen by the majority of people (for example through a vote).

 

[Pushka]

So the sole indicator should be age? So our high court judges, surgeons, world-class medical pioneers... all lose out to an 30 year old interpretive dance practitioner? Tough call!

Obviously we are going to need guidelines. The problem will be finding the ones that are fair. Or if not 'fair', then chosen by the majority of people (for example through a vote).

No. But age and associated frailty and expected recovery are very linked. Not 100% of course but a strong correlation. In the absence of other indicators its likely the best parameter available when rapid decisions are required.

 

[p--and--t]

So the sole indicator should be age? So our high court judges, surgeons, world-class medical pioneers... all lose out to an 30 year old interpretive dance practitioner? Tough call!

Obviously we are going to need guidelines. The problem will be finding the ones that are fair. Or if not 'fair', then chosen by the majority of people (for example through a vote).

In practicality, as at today, I suspect "in the heat of the moment" the decision will be made imprecisely on the spot by a medico subject to his/her personal biases overlaying medical training.

 

[suze2000]

In practicality, as at today, I suspect "in the heat of the moment" the decision will be made imprecisely on the spot by a medico subject to his/her personal biases overlaying medical training.

Probably. But a) I'm glad the numbers here are low enough that this hasn't been required, and
b) I work in a hospital; over the years you see patterns. As long as the decision is based on experience and not racist/ageist/fattist/sexist etc, I'm probably going to be okay with it.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

In practicality, as at today, I suspect "in the heat of the moment" the decision will be made imprecisely on the spot by a medico subject to his/her personal biases overlaying medical training.

I think that's what a set of guidelines would seek to address. Decisions would be transparent, and consistent.

The Swiss guidelines seem fair. Age in itself is not a criterion, but underlying comorbidities - often due to age - are a factor. But it appears if you are 70 and fit and healthy, it would be illegal to discriminate. They also dismiss other options such as a lottery system, or 'first come first served'.

 

[drron]

Looks like Premier's popularity dealing with Covid doesn't really translate to votes.
In QLD both Ipswich and Mackay are safe Labor seats and Keppel and Thuringowa are also not in the top 10 of Labor's most marginal seats.

Also a recent poll in 5 Victorian ALP seats showed a big swing away from Dan.

Daniel Andrews under fire from Myer boss as popularity drops in poll

The boss of retail giant Myer is the latest business leader to slam under-fire Daniel Andrews over his roadmap out of lockdown as his public popularity as Victorian Premier plummets ina new poll.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The actual poll results are in the Herald Sun behind a paywall.

 

[Pete98765432]

Also a recent poll in 5 Victorian ALP seats showed a big swing away from Dan.

Daniel Andrews under fire from Myer boss as popularity drops in poll

The boss of retail giant Myer is the latest business leader to slam under-fire Daniel Andrews over his roadmap out of lockdown as his public popularity as Victorian Premier plummets ina new poll.

www.dailymail.co.uk

In Victoria, I think a lot will depend on the success of the lockdown. If his strategy works and the economy opens up without another spike in cases, his popularity will probably rebound. I think he's doing what be believes is necessary rather than what will give him a boost in the polls.

 

[serfty]

I think he's doing what be believes is necessary rather than what will give him a boost in the polls.

There's 26 months to go, so minimal care factor. Also up to 48% of Vics basically vote Labor or greens no matter what.

 

[p--and--t]

There's 26 months to go, so minimal care factor. Also up to 48% of Vics basically vote Labor or greens no matter what.

For a democracy to function properly there needs to be viable choices.

I feel that currently there is not a viable or competent alternative.

The daily irrational and inconsistent squealing from the current opposition leader disuades me from looking around and gives me no confidence at all.

It would be great to go to the next election (any election) with real choices