General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[Flashback]

Are there any specific religions that are telling their adherents not to vaccinate?

I remember seeing some in southern US, have posted on one of the threads earlier this year.

 

[Pushka]

I remember seeing some in southern US, have posted on one of the threads earlier this year.

I think there is a potential issue with the origins being from foetal cells. That was mentioned way back when.

 

[MARTINE]

I remember seeing some in southern US, have posted on one of the threads earlier this year.

Not sure about specific religions but - many including a famous tennis player - are more along the lives of the deity of choice being all the protection you need…

 

[Quickstatus]

article states that more fully vaccinated people are having their boosters than remaining unvaccinated people are receiving their first dose.

There is a glut of Vax in AU and some about to expire.I know 2 GP who are happy to administer >2Jab

 

[Quickstatus]

Are there any specific religions that are telling their adherents not to vaccinate?

All the Abrahamics are good with CovidVax
Adventists good
Orthodox christians good
JW good
Christian Science good
Mormons good incl masks
Scientology no official stance
Brethren good
Hindu good
Buddhism good
Zoroastrians good

Historically religion has never played a part in anti vaccination.

There are some vaccines which have bovine components and human cell lines from aborted defuses which some religions may have difficulty - certain versions of hepatitis A, rubella, chicken pox, smallpox. The advent of a purely synthetic Vax like mRNA would eliminate a lot of these concerns (small in number though) - except that it introduces some new ones like “microchipping”

 

[Quickstatus]

Unfortunately, the medicos won’t have involvement in the planning/logistics of getting the vaccine out there, or with the appointments system,

Medicos are good at the medico thing. They are hopeless at logistics and appointments

That’s why even organisations like RFDS, MSF have more logisticians than medicos.
Logistics is a very technical skill.

Medical secretaries hold a lot of power - you want to see the doctor? You got to get past the secretary first. In some ways more dragon than the dragon at the entrance of a frequent flyer lounge

 

[Quickstatus]

Play spot the difference:




PZ vs SV
(Pfizer vs Moderna)

(a) mRNA content
PZ 30mcg
SV 100mcg

(b) mRNA sequence slightly different. See attached. Note that the mRNA is not only a sequence but the 3 dimensional structure that it forms is also extremely important. Can you spot the difference

(c) lipid encapsulation of mRNA also different
PZ:

• ((4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis
• (2-hexyldecanoate), 2 [(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide
• 1,2-Distearoyl-snglycero-3- phosphocholine
• cholesterol

SV:

• SM-102
• 1,2-dimyristoyl-rac-glycero3-methoxypolyethylene glycol-2000 [PEG2000-DMG]
• cholesterol
• 1,2-distearoyl-snglycero-3-phosphocholine [DSPC]

 

[drron]

So the European authorities have approved both Pfizer and Moderna for boosters but have only said May be used.Not a general recommendation.

Interesting that the Pfizer decision says may be used after 6 months but the Moderna 6-8 months and at half dosage.

Spikevax: EMA recommendation on booster | European Medicines Agency (EMA)

www.ema.europa.eu

Comirnaty and Spikevax: EMA recommendations on extra doses and boosters | European Medicines Agency (EMA)

www.ema.europa.eu

And an interesting article on Israels study of breakthrough infections in vaccinated individuals. First they had lower antibody levels. All identified sources for their infections were unvaccinated persons and contact tracing could not find evidence that they passed the infection to anyone else.

Breakthrough Infections Occur in Those with Lower Antibody Levels, Israeli Study Shows

To see how COVID-19 vaccines are working in the real world, Israel has provided particularly compelling data. The fact that Israel is relatively small, keeps comprehensive medical records, and has …

directorsblog.nih.gov

 

[Quickstatus]

Moderna 6-8 months and at half dosage.

Presumably because SV has triple the mRNA content of PZ per normal jab

First they had lower antibody levels

...The actual case control study...

22 cases in study matched to 104 controls at about a 1:5 case control ratio which is adequate

(Caveat: study done before Delta outbreak)

And the breakthrough infections were all mild except for one who had persisting mild symptoms for more than 6 weeks

Q: was the lower antibody level due to waning immunity or a more limited immune response to the Vax.

 

[Katie]

All the Abrahamics are good with CovidVax
Adventists good
Orthodox christians good
JW good
Christian Science good
Mormons good incl masks
Scientology no official stance
Brethren good
Hindu good
Buddhism good
Zoroastrians good

Historically religion has never played a part in anti vaccination.

In my anecdotal observations, I haven't seen any Anglican or Catholics generally against the Covid vaccines.

One more evangelically inclined friend seems to be getting more medical information from the ACL and Martin whathisface, rather than seeking medical advice from doctors, the likes of whom made sure they're alive and survived breast cancer. I don't get it, but I haven't had deep, in-person discussions with them to understand why they are less distrustful of medical practitioners now than they were 10-15 years ago.

Personally, my Anglican vicar posted when she got her vaccines, told the parish at which clinic she'd found an appointment (when they were scarce up here), and encouraged anyone concerned to talk to their GP about vaccinations.

 

[Quickstatus]

The commercial churches (Hillsong) also OK

 

[ethernet]

Not sure is this belongs in news area, but I read somewhere J&J (one shot), has very high transmissible figures, even dropping to single digits over time. A second dose of J&J fixes matters.
TGA and ATAGI should be very wary about allowing single shot J&J in. For travel, like it or not, new efficacy is now defined as 'not testing positive'. Given ACT and NSW have smashed 93% fully vaccinated real soon now, we still see WA openly defying the intent of the national plan.
Would WA still say no to triple vaccinated Aussies sporting a booster? TGA and ATAGI need to think carefully, and say open season on boosters (it is not their part to play cost effectiveness/timing gods).

Age and Obesity should be scored, as for those traveling to risk adverse places, like OS and health care settings. Those who did their civic duty taking AZ - should also get first dibs. How about delegating that to GP's or the chemist.

The second take home message is to stop relying solely on US based info, and read the UK and European / Israel info/numbers. Israel did not muck around - it saw - it acted. Boosters for all. It trusted its own figures, not sanitized reporting by the suppliers.

 

[drron]

Another study on whether natural immunity is better than vaccination. This time from Israel.Totally different results from the US study.
In one group compared unvaccinated subjects who had had covid v double vaxxed subjects.The events had occurred in Jan or Feb 2021.
Result-
After adjusting for comorbidities, we found a statistically significant 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection as opposed to reinfection (P<0.001).
Tat is the vaxxed subjects were 13.06 times more likely to get infection than previously infected subjects.

Then they studied when the time of infection or vaccination occurred was irrelevant.
Result-
After adjusting for comorbidities, a 5.96-fold increased risk (95% CI, 4.85 to 7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection as opposed to reinfection could be observed (P<0.001) (
So a 5.96 increased risk if vaxxed.

In the third study compared unvaxxed previously infected with previously infected + 1 dose vaccine.
Result.
Examining previously infected individuals to those who were both previously infected and received a single dose of the vaccine, we found that the latter group had a significant 0.53-fold (95% CI, 0.3 to 0.92)
One dose led to a halving of risk in previously infected subjects.

Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections

Background Reports of waning vaccine-induced immunity against COVID-19 have begun to surface. With that, the comparable long-term protection conferred by previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 remains unclear. Methods We conducted a retrospective observational study comparing three groups...

www.medrxiv.org

 

[drron]

The UK is now studying the effect of natural immunity.Offering antibody testing to all who have a positive PCR.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

And good news for those who have a needle phobia. An intranasal vaccine has encouraging results from a small phase 1 trial.Obviously still some time away from knowing for sure it's effectiveness.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

 

[Quickstatus]

This time from Israel

And study period from June to Aug 2021 during Delta using matched subjects for date of vaccination or infection to 6months prior
Even the unmatched where infection occurred further out than 6 months showed infection better than vaxxed.

There is no data regarding which CovidStrain caused the breakthrough infection

Its main weakness is that it is a retrospective observational study. However it is a very large study.

 

[Lynda2475]

Examining previously infected individuals to those who were both previously infected and received a single dose of the vaccine, we found that the latter group had a significant 0.53-fold (95% CI, 0.3 to 0.92)

So no reason not to and only benefit for asking them to get vaccinated and not just rely on natural immunity.

 

[Quickstatus]

no reason not to and only benefit for asking them to get vaccinated

Hmm, not necessarily…

Out of the 14000 cases in the study 3, there was only one Covid hospitalisation and no deaths in either group. (Symptomatic illness in 23 of infected group and 16 in infected and vaxxed group. 14069 matched cases in each group).
Though statistically significant the difference was small.

You would be better off targeting the elderly and the ones with immunocompromise and comorbidities in the infected group and offering boosters according to that study.

Again there will be 3 groups of people.
On the one end the antivaxxers, in the middle the large “go with the majority” group, and at the other extreme - the “more is better” crowd.

 

[drron]

And seeing the previously infected group had many less cases than double vaxxed people why should they be hit with quarantine.
This study is much better than the USA study as Israel collected the health history of every one who was vaxxed. It was the price they paid for getting guaranteed early delivery of the Pfizer vaccine. They had to pass all of it on to Pfizer.

 

[Lynda2475]

And seeing the previously infected group had many less cases than double vaxxed people why should they be hit with quarantine.

They wont be if they bother to get vaxed. Vaccination is free and there are internationally recognized certificates to prove it, much easier for Border Patrol to validate vax than to try and verify that you have had covid, are recovered and still have anti-bodies.

 

[Flashback]

They wont be if they bother to get vaxed. Vaccination is free and there are internationally recognized certificates to prove it, much easier for Border Patrol to validate vax than to try and verify that you have had covid, are recovered and still have anti-bodies.

I bet some of the countries I've been to in the last 6 weeks, that have their own vaccination certificates..... would not be recognised by Australia. In fact, I can almost guarantee it. If you're not a big hitter country, they're not interested.