General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[Matt_01]

As this is the general thread I thought I would ask a question about the booster shot 6 months after the second jab. Is this just due to the fact that over this 6 month period the effectiveness of the first 2 has decreased, I am assuming so. Would that mean 6 months further down the track you are back in the same situation or does the third shot make the vaccine more effective for a longer period of time. I am only asking as MrsM and I will be due for the booster in Feb, MissM in April. We plan to go to the UK and EU in late Sep/ Oct and would like to understand how effective the vacineen will be some 8 months after the booster. If the effectiveness is only good for around 6 months we would be quite willing to self fund (if permitted) just to ensure we have maximum protection. We have come to accept we may end up catching Covid at some point and hope by Sep/Oct next year the world will have settled enough that we will not need proof of positive tests to get on planes.

I would interested to hear from the medically trained members of this forum what their thoughts are. There has been a lot of detail posted about studies however that technical medical stuff I simply do not understand nor do I have the inclination to research the subject. If I had wanted to be a Dr or into the medical field I would have gone to medical school

 

[Pushka]

As this is the general thread I thought I would ask a question about the booster shot 6 months after the second jab. Is this just due to the fact that over this 6 month period the effectiveness of the first 2 has decreased, I am assuming so. Would that mean 6 months further down the track you are back in the same situation or does the third shot make the vaccine more effective for a longer period of time. I am only asking as MrsM and I will be due for the booster in Feb, MissM in April. We plan to go to the UK and EU in late Sep/ Oct and would like to understand how effective the vacineen will be some 8 months after the booster. If the effectiveness is only good for around 6 months we would be quite willing to self fund (if permitted) just to ensure we have maximum protection. We have come to accept we may end up catching Covid at some point and hope by Sep/Oct next year the world will have settled enough that we will not need proof of positive tests to get on planes.

I would interested to hear from the medically trained members of this forum what their thoughts are. There has been a lot of detail posted about studies however that technical medical stuff I simply do not understand nor do I have the inclination to research the subject. If I had wanted to be a Dr or into the medical field I would have gone to medical school

No medico here but I did hear from one Immunologist that he expected the booster shot to potentially confer lifelong immunity. But then we hear stories of a combined flu/covid shot. Then there are mutations. So maybe it's a case of - too soon and no-one knows yet?

 

[mviy]

Not a medico, but as other nations started booster shots before us, overseas data should help inform whether further boosters are needed.

At the very least I suspect at least some of the immunocompromised may need more boosters.

 

[drron]

If you have had the Pfizer jab you should have a booster if you are going travelling.The experience from Israel,the US and Europe is that effectivenes has fallen quickly after 6 months.
I suspect it might be due to sticking to the 3 week gap.There are some reports from the UK and Canada that Pfizer has lasted longer but they were using longer intevals between jabs. 8-10 weeks appeared to be the best and 12 for AZ. AZ did change the interval,Pfizer did not.There is no evidence that the 3 week interval is the best but there studies were done with the 3 week interval and no other intervals were tested.

Having had AZ I will wait until 2-3 weeks before heading off OS. From the UK although Pfizer was effective after 6 months AZ had not lost as much effectiveness.

 

[Flashback]

If you have had the Pfizer jab you should have a booster if you are going travelling.The experience from Israel,the US and Europe is that effectivenes has fallen quickly after 6 months.
I suspect it might be due to sticking to the 3 week gap.There are some reports from the UK and Canada that Pfizer has lasted longer but they were using longer intevals between jabs. 8-10 weeks appeared to be the best and 12 for AZ. AZ did change the interval,Pfizer did not.There is no evidence that the 3 week interval is the best but there studies were done with the 3 week interval and no other intervals were tested.

Having had AZ I will wait until 2-3 weeks before heading off OS. From the UK although Pfizer was effective after 6 months AZ had not lost as much effectiveness.

I received an SMS to go down for my jab today as well as the flu jab. When I got there this afternoon I was told that was a mistake, the COVID jab clinic was in the morning and flu in the afternoon. Have had my flu jab now at least. 5.5 months since my 2nd Pfizer jab, after having had about 9-10 weeks in between my first and second.

 

[andye]

In my anecdotal observations, I haven't seen any Anglican or Catholics generally against the Covid vaccines.

One more evangelically inclined friend seems to be getting more medical information from the ACL and Martin whathisface, rather than seeking medical advice from doctors, the likes of whom made sure they're alive and survived breast cancer. I don't get it, but I haven't had deep, in-person discussions with them to understand why they are less distrustful of medical practitioners now than they were 10-15 years ago.

Personally, my Anglican vicar posted when she got her vaccines, told the parish at which clinic she'd found an appointment (when they were scarce up here), and encouraged anyone concerned to talk to their GP about vaccinations.

In Europe it's the Catholic countries where the vaccination rates are highest

 

[andye]

As this is the general thread I thought I would ask a question about the booster shot 6 months after the second jab. Is this just due to the fact that over this 6 month period the effectiveness of the first 2 has decreased, I am assuming so. Would that mean 6 months further down the track you are back in the same situation or does the third shot make the vaccine more effective for a longer period of time. I am only asking as MrsM and I will be due for the booster in Feb, MissM in April. We plan to go to the UK and EU in late Sep/ Oct and would like to understand how effective the vacineen will be some 8 months after the booster. If the effectiveness is only good for around 6 months we would be quite willing to self fund (if permitted) just to ensure we have maximum protection. We have come to accept we may end up catching Covid at some point and hope by Sep/Oct next year the world will have settled enough that we will not need proof of positive tests to get on planes.

I would interested to hear from the medically trained members of this forum what their thoughts are. There has been a lot of detail posted about studies however that technical medical stuff I simply do not understand nor do I have the inclination to research the subject. If I had wanted to be a Dr or into the medical field I would have gone to medical school

I am neither an infectious disease nor public health specialist but my understanding is that for travel (when any breakthrough infection can be very disruptive) a booster would be very sensible if more than 6 months (Israel says 5) since second dose.
As to how long that third dose will be effective, it's simply not known as there is no real-world data. There is a suggestion from the immune response that the third dose may confer longer-lasting protection

 

[mviy]

The US has approved Pfizer for kids aged 5-11. Probably only a matter of time before Australia approves it for the same age group one would think.

 

[Chalkie]

If you have had the Pfizer jab you should have a booster if you are going travelling.The experience from Israel,the US and Europe is that effectivenes has fallen quickly after 6 months.
I suspect it might be due to sticking to the 3 week gap.There are some reports from the UK and Canada that Pfizer has lasted longer but they were using longer intevals between jabs. 8-10 weeks appeared to be the best and 12 for AZ. AZ did change the interval,Pfizer did not.There is no evidence that the 3 week interval is the best but there studies were done with the 3 week interval and no other intervals were tested.

Having had AZ I will wait until 2-3 weeks before heading off OS. From the UK although Pfizer was effective after 6 months AZ had not lost as much effectiveness.

This is the latest from Canada (from British Columbia). BC used a 12 week interval between doses. The study suggests the longer the dose interval for Pfizer, the longer the effectiveness.

The thing that keeps getting missed in a lot of the commentary is the distinction between surface antibodies and T-cell immunity. I've been keeping a weather eye out for any T-cell studies, but I've not seen anything of note yet.

In BC, boosters will be offered to AZ recipients (and vulnerable groups) after 6 months. mRNA and mixed recipients will be offered boosters not before 8 months after second dose.

 

[Quickstatus]

I've been keeping a weather eye out for any T-cell studies, but I've not seen anything of note yet.

Difficult to study unfortunately as you need a longer duration longitudinal study
Ive have not seen many significant T cell studies

They shortened the Pfizer 1Jan to 2jab interval due to the emergency oft he pandemic.
A longer duration usually works better for most vaccines.

Why did Pfizer choose 30mcg rather than another dose. It was initially 100mcg. Why not 50mcg.
Here is a Phase II PZ study comparing 10,30,100mcg PZ
Question: why 30mcg?. I suspect this was recommended by PZ.

in the end they went for 30mcg as the study pointed out a dose dependant side effect profile and also later studies showed the difference in seroconversion was acceptable.

In December 2020 there was a phase II/III PZ study which showed 3 weeks interval is safe and efficacious for 30mcg
Later another small study by the UK-CIC showed 12 weeks even better in May 2021

I wonder if I was given a placebo as I had zero side effects.......

 

[drron]

Pfizer always recommended a 3 week interval between jabs as that is what was studied in their Phase 3 studies.The real world results from the UK also suggested a longer interval between Pfizer jabs just as with Canada.
Warning cynic speaking.Pfizer picked 30mcg and 3 weeks interval because it would mean more doses available more quickly and booster doses needed earlier.

 

[Quickstatus]

The data that is missing from Covid19 vaccine studies is the relative lack of negative studies. It is not sexy and loses funding

Here is an important reminder to account for positive publication bias and the importance of "no evidence"

Importance of Negative Studies
Publication bias
Importance of No evidence


.....................

more doses

if severely cynical, "More revenue generating doses per mRNA content"
and PZ had clause which allows them to raise the prices after the second dose or when the pandemic has been controlled
(cynically speculating)

 

[drron]

The data that is missing from Covid19 vaccine studies is the relative lack of negative studies. It is not sexy and loses funding

Here is an important reminder to account for positive publication bias and the importance of "no evidence"

Importance of Negative Studies
Publication bias
Importance of No evidence


.....................

if severely cynical, "More revenue generating doses per mRNA content"
and PZ had clause which allows them to raise the prices after the second dose or when the pandemic has been controlled
(cynically speculating)

Maybe not just a lack of negative studies but some dubious activity in the positive studies as suggested in this report in the BMJ.

Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial

Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight. Paul D Thacker reports In autumn 2020 Pfizer’s chairman and chief executive, Albert Bourla, released an open...

www.bmj.com

Patients potentially unblinded.
Severe side effects not followed up.
And 477 with covid symptoms not tested.
This all as part of Pfizer's Phase 3 trial

 

[tgh]

all as part of Pfizer's Phase 3 trial

..and I have to have their dodgy vaccine as a booster because au is complicit in the delusion…..

 

[Pushka]

all as part of Pfizer's Phase 3 trial

..and I have to have their dodgy vaccine as a booster because au is complicit in the delusion…..

I'm sure there are ways and means of having a third vaccine of AZ. I'd try Chemist Warehouse or similar.

 

[jakeseven7]

all as part of Pfizer's Phase 3 trial

..and I have to have their dodgy vaccine as a booster because au is complicit in the delusion…..

Primary care will be eventually offering all vaccinations including Moderna so if you have a good GP who knows vaccines they are allowed to prescribe off label use. They sure have been to themselves and many other healthcare workers!

 

[tgh]

..sigh.. I would choose to play the game with a straight bat and use our GP..
They are "supposed" to advise us thoughtfully ..are they not ??
Swmbo is visiting them in a week or so and will ask the question...

 

[Pushka]

..sigh.. I would choose to play the game with a straight bat and use our GP..
They are "supposed" to advise us thoughtfully ..are they not ??
Swmbo is visiting them in a week or so and will ask the question...

Well my GP practice never provided the vaccine so I've had to go 'off-piste' from the start and simply sort things out as best suited my situation.

 

[Princess Fiona]

I'm sure there are ways and means of having a third vaccine of AZ. I'd try Chemist Warehouse or similar.

#disclaimer this isn’t medical advice.

 

[MARTINE]

Maybe not just a lack of negative studies but some dubious activity in the positive studies as suggested in this report in the BMJ.

Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial

Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight. Paul D Thacker reports In autumn 2020 Pfizer’s chairman and chief executive, Albert Bourla, released an open...

www.bmj.com

Patients potentially unblinded.
Severe side effects not followed up.
And 477 with covid symptoms not tested.
This all as part of Pfizer's Phase 3 trial

Thanks for highlighting @drron …I read that BMJ article just now and my blood ran cold.
The politicisation and $$ incentives in medicine in the US have much to answer for.