General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[kangarooflyer88]

Also fails to account for the underlying conditions / comorbidities of the vaccinated people with adverse health outcomes, and the fact that many are hospitalised or died with covid but not due to covid. Those numbers include drug over doses and car crash victims where covid wasn't a factor at all, not to mention those with terminal cancer, chronic conditions like cystic fibrosis.

The real failure right now is the government has done sweet nothing to prioritize people like me who are at high risk for developing COVID disease. The data is painfully obvious, yes the vaccine does offer great protection, but amongst the high risk group it still may not be enough to avoid adverse effects. If those who are high risk are given treatment immediately upon testing positive for COVID (be it by RAT or PCR) we can significantly curb the risk of hospitalization, ICU admission and death. Some of the TGA approved treatments come in pill form to be taken over the course of several days and significantly reduces these risks - if taken early.

I still can't understand how we are having any deaths from COVID at this point given the vaccines, treatments, masks and other protections in place.

-RooFlyer88

 

[Must...Fly!]

The real failure right now is the government has done sweet nothing to prioritize people like me who are at high risk for developing COVID disease.

If you test positive call your GP immediately. My understanding is in some states they can refer you if appropriate straight away to the state health department for consideration/supply of the enhanced(TM) treatments.

NB I may be wrong but this is what I have heard...

 

[Lynda2475]

In NSW if you report a positive RAT there is a questionnaire re risk factors, if you are genuinely high risk you are contacted and offered preventative treatments, and your GP can help (if you have one).

So vulnerable individuals do get access to treatments that are unavailable to most.

Expecting zero Covid deaths is completely unrealistic, especially given those most at risk are equally at risk from flu and a myriad of other infections.

 

[N860CR]

Of course, if one is genuinely sick, they can call an ambulance and receive the best medical treatment the world offers. We’re not in Bangui.

 

[mviy]

I still can't understand how we are having any deaths from COVID at this point given the vaccines, treatments, masks and other protections in place.

There's a big difference between dying from COVID and dying with COVID. Most of the deaths at this point are probably either unvaccinated or dying with COVID but dying from some other co-morbidity.

 

[andye]

The real failure right now is the government has done sweet nothing to prioritize people like me who are at high risk for developing COVID disease. The data is painfully obvious, yes the vaccine does offer great protection, but amongst the high risk group it still may not be enough to avoid adverse effects. If those who are high risk are given treatment immediately upon testing positive for COVID (be it by RAT or PCR) we can significantly curb the risk of hospitalization, ICU admission and death. Some of the TGA approved treatments come in pill form to be taken over the course of several days and significantly reduces these risks - if taken early.

We've been administering sotrivimab like it's cordial to those who need it and I'm sure GPs will be giving out the newer oral agents like they're smarties to those in need as they become available.

I still can't understand how we are having any deaths from COVID at this point given the vaccines, treatments, masks and other protections in place.

-RooFlyer88

This is like saying we should have no deaths from bacterial sepsis as we have soap and lots of antibiotics.

A significant proportion of deaths are in the very frail for whom many minor infections can prove fatal. Another proportion are in the unvaccinated or under-vaccinated. Some are terribly unlucky.

I'm sure we could reduce deaths further with an ultra-hard lockdown and everyone wearing full medical-grade PPE but there are very few who want to live like that.

 

[drron]

The real failure right now is the government has done sweet nothing to prioritize people like me who are at high risk for developing COVID disease. The data is painfully obvious, yes the vaccine does offer great protection, but amongst the high risk group it still may not be enough to avoid adverse effects. If those who are high risk are given treatment immediately upon testing positive for COVID (be it by RAT or PCR) we can significantly curb the risk of hospitalization, ICU admission and death. Some of the TGA approved treatments come in pill form to be taken over the course of several days and significantly reduces these risks - if taken early.

I still can't understand how we are having any deaths from COVID at this point given the vaccines, treatments, masks and other protections in place.

-RooFlyer88

So call your GP or one of the covid help lines.
For NSW this is -NSW Health COVID-19 Care at Home Support Line on 1800 960 933 (8.30 am - 8.30 pm ) or the National Coronavirus Helpline on 1800 020 080 ( 24/7)
Each State and Territory should have a similiar service.
Remember Health is a State responsibility.
Here in Tasmania there are TV and radio ads advertising their Care at Home help line.

 

[Pushka]

The real failure right now is the government has done sweet nothing to prioritize people like me who are at high risk for developing COVID disease. The data is painfully obvious, yes the vaccine does offer great protection, but amongst the high risk group it still may not be enough to avoid adverse effects. If those who are high risk are given treatment immediately upon testing positive for COVID (be it by RAT or PCR) we can significantly curb the risk of hospitalization, ICU admission and death. Some of the TGA approved treatments come in pill form to be taken over the course of several days and significantly reduces these risks - if taken early.

I still can't understand how we are having any deaths from COVID at this point given the vaccines, treatments, masks and other protections in place.

-RooFlyer88

I understood that an assessment was done over the phone once the positive was advised and in SA anyway you are sent a link to fill in a 'vulnerability' survey and action would be taken.

As far as deaths go, many aren't vaccinated. Many are elderly anyway and may refuse medical treatment or have other significant issues that already are life threatening. None of those details are disclosed. The vaccine doesn't cure cancer, age, heart disease etc etc and people who are vaccinated will die and will have tested positive to Covid.

 

[Must...Fly!]

I understood that an assessment was done over the phone once the positive was advised and in SA anyway you are sent a link to fill in a 'vulnerability' survey and action would be taken.

As far as deaths go, many aren't vaccinated. Many are elderly anyway and may refuse medical treatment or have other significant issues that already are life threatening. None of those details are disclosed. The vaccine doesn't cure cancer, age, heart disease etc etc and people who are vaccinated will die and will have tested positive to Covid.

I am informed no such process exists in WA for GP referral.

It definitely does in VIC.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Dying with COVID but dying from some other co-morbidity....

While some are, I think the majority of those who die with Covid and who have a co-morbidity it is Covid that has hastened the death.
For some that may not have been by a long period, but with others it will be years and sometimes many years that they have lost. I know of one where it most likely would be decades that has been lost. His comorbidity made him vulnerable, but there was no indication that he would have passed on anytime soon if it was not for Covid.


Living with Covid unfortunately means that some who are more susceptible to Covid will have an earlier death than otherwise. Their deaths are part of the price that we as a community have decided to pay, just as we do with say travel and car accidents, or say the flu.

There is no way forward without negative consequences and we have as a community decided to go a certain way where we believe the positive outcomes outweigh the negative ones. We had to resume a more normal existence, and to stay living in a bubble also creates other negative financial and health outcomes, including deaths.

But I think it is wrong to just think that these people would have died now anyway. Most would not. I think we need to recognise that some people, including their relatives are paying a higher price than the majority us will to "Live with Covid".

So let us respect the price they have paid, or will pay, and not disrespect it by passing it off as they would have died anyway. Most will have died earlier than they would have otherwise.

 

[Lynda2475]

Most would not

Your opinion but far from hard fact.

Commentary from CHOs does not support that majority of those who died with covid died from covid.

A friend who works as a nurse in covid icu ward at Concord Hospital has observed most admitted with covid were already critically ill from other causes.

Average aged of covid death is over 80. And the surveillance reports frequently call out that where person has died outside of hospital that covid is only diagnosed after death, primary cause something else.

Fact is we are not seeing excess deaths, for your statement that most wouldn't have died but for covid, we would need to be seeing a growth in excess deaths from pre covid years, fact is rate has been lower since the pandemic began.

All deaths are sad, but just because you dont like the truth that most would have died anyway doesnt mean it isnt true.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

In NSW if you report a positive RAT there is a questionnaire re risk factors, if you are genuinely high risk you are contacted and offered preventative treatments, and your GP can help (if you have one).

So vulnerable individuals do get access to treatments that are unavailable to most.

Expecting zero Covid deaths is completely unrealistic, especially given those most at risk are equally at risk from flu and a myriad of other infections.

I'm not saying they don't have access, I'm saying the state needs to be very proactive when it comes to high risk people. And I say that as someone in that category. I did not receive a letter back in March last year nor a call from my GP saying you need to come in for your COVID vaccination. It was only through looking at the Department of Health website that I was able to determine I could get the jab now. Even then it required calling my GP to schedule an appointment, having him book me into a respiratory clinic and then me having to go through this process all over again before I could get my dose of AstraZeneca. If you know you're high risk and fight for it, then yeah you'll get all the treatment you want. But we shouldn't be demanding that of the most vulnerable in our community. I'm a 30 something with energy and IT skills to navigate all this bureaucracy, I doubt Gladys down the road whose 70 can do that.

Of course, if one is genuinely sick, they can call an ambulance and receive the best medical treatment the world offers. We’re not in Bangui.

The issue with COVID is by the time you call an ambulance, most of the treatments aren't very effective. Many of these treatments require you to take it immediately upon testing positive to get that 90% reduction in hospitalization.

There's a big difference between dying from COVID and dying with COVID. Most of the deaths at this point are probably either unvaccinated or dying with COVID but dying from some other co-morbidity.

You are right that there are a decent number of people that die with COVID. One thing that's difficult to untangle is whether COVID was the thing that pushed them over the edge to succumb to their other illnesses or was just noise. Regardless, as a society we do owe the vulnerable in our society a duty of care. After all, wouldn't you want that when you end up in that group someday?

I'm sure we could reduce deaths further with an ultra-hard lockdown and everyone wearing full medical-grade PPE but there are very few who want to live like that.

It's unclear if lockdowns have had any impact with Delta or Omicron. For instance when we had that Delta outbreak last year in Sydney, the lockdowns at best slowed the rate of speed down. But Delta daily numbers kept creeping up. It was only when a sufficiently large percent of the population was fully vaccinated that we saw those numbers drop first into the low thousand, then into the hundreds then around hundred before Omicron hit. People who are high risk should be wearing N95 when it's feasible to do so and it should be handed out by the government as they do in the United States. If more vulnerable people were wearing N95s I can guarantee you fewer of them will be catching COVID and if fewer catch COVID fewer will end up in hospital/ICU, regardless of vaccination status.

-RooFlyer88

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Dying with COVID but dying from some other co-morbidity....

While some are, I think the majority of those who die with Covid and who have a co-morbidity it is Covid that has hastened the death.
For some that may not have been by a long period, but with others it will be years and sometimes many years that they have lost. I know of one where it most likely would be decades that has been lost. His comorbidity made him vulnerable, but there was no indication that he would have passed on anytime soon if it was not for Covid.


Living with Covid unfortunately means that some who are more susceptible to Covid will have an earlier death than otherwise. Their deaths are part of the price that we as a community have decided to pay, just as we do with say travel and car accidents, or say the flu.

There is no way forward without negative consequences and we have as a community decided to go a certain way where we believe the positive outcomes outweigh the negative ones. We had to resume a more normal existence, and to stay living in a bubble also creates other negative financial and health outcomes, including deaths.

But I think it is wrong to just think that these people would have died now anyway. Most would not. I think we need to recognise that some people, including their relatives are paying a higher price than the majority us will to "Live with Covid".

So let us respect the price they have paid, or will pay, and not disrespect it by passing it off as they would have died anyway. Most will have died earlier than they would have otherwise.

Your opinion but far from hard fact.

Commentary from CHOs does not support that majority of those who died with covid died from covid.


A friend who works as a nurse in covid icu ward at Concord Hospital has observed most admitted with covid were already critically ill from other causes.

Average aged of covid death is over 80. And the surveillance reports frequently call out that where person has died outside of hospital that covid is only diagnosed after death, primary cause something else.

Virtually nothing of your post reflects what I actually wrote.

Refer to my post above... it quite clearly states with, and not from...plus I am only talking of those who had comorbidities.

Fact is we are not seeing excess deaths, for your statement that most wouldn't have died but for covid, we would need to be seeing a growth in excess deaths from pre covid years, fact is rate has been lower since the pandemic began.

Not raised in my post at all. However "Living with Covid", which is what my post referenced, and which is a strategy I fully agree with, only commenced in late 2021.

So have Covid deaths jumped in the Living with Covid Period?= Yes ( Covid having infected the more vulnerable and hastened their death whether it be in hospitals or in aged care)

Will death from other causes such as flu also rise now that we are Living with Covid ?=Most like yes as we will be back doing all the things we used to do, but with Covid now added to the list. Come this winter, it would be quite likely for flu.







Question: Of those that died with Covid and who had comorbidities, how many would actually be dead now if they had not have contracted covid? (Which was the thrust of my post)

All deaths are sad, but just because you dont like the truth that most would have died anyway

would have died anyway. As in eventually? As in contracting Covid resulted in them dying prematurely as it became the tipping point for some of those with comorbidities ?

While some are, I think the majority of those who die with Covid and who have a co-morbidity it is Covid that has hastened the death.

People like Sue Rees who had lymphoma, and who if she had not contracted Covid would most likely still be alive now. She may well have succumbed to lymphoma eventually and perhaps even soon, but without Covid she would most likely still be alive now.

‘She was so much more than a statistic’: a vibrant Melbourne life cut short by Covid

Sue Rees survived cancer but died in hospital as Australia’s Omicron wave took off. Her daughter wants to remember the person hidden by the daily toll

www.theguardian.com

 

[drron]

Quite a few of those who died with covid in their 80s/90s would probably have died with influenza or another infection in pre-Covid years.

 

[OATEK]

Dying with COVID but dying from some other co-morbidity....

While some are, I think the majority of those who die with Covid and who have a co-morbidity it is Covid that has hastened the death.
For some that may not have been by a long period, but with others it will be years and sometimes many years that they have lost. I know of one where it most likely would be decades that has been lost. His comorbidity made him vulnerable, but there was no indication that he would have passed on anytime soon if it was not for Covid.


Living with Covid unfortunately means that some who are more susceptible to Covid will have an earlier death than otherwise. Their deaths are part of the price that we as a community have decided to pay, just as we do with say travel and car accidents, or say the flu.

There is no way forward without negative consequences and we have as a community decided to go a certain way where we believe the positive outcomes outweigh the negative ones. We had to resume a more normal existence, and to stay living in a bubble also creates other negative financial and health outcomes, including deaths.

But I think it is wrong to just think that these people would have died now anyway. Most would not. I think we need to recognise that some people, including their relatives are paying a higher price than the majority us will to "Live with Covid".

So let us respect the price they have paid, or will pay, and not disrespect it by passing it off as they would have died anyway. Most will have died earlier than they would have otherwise.

Your opinion but far from hard fact.

Commentary from CHOs does not support that majority of those who died with covid died from covid.

A friend who works as a nurse in covid icu ward at Concord Hospital has observed most admitted with covid were already critically ill from other causes.

Average aged of covid death is over 80. And the surveillance reports frequently call out that where person has died outside of hospital that covid is only diagnosed after death, primary cause something else.

Fact is we are not seeing excess deaths, for your statement that most wouldn't have died but for covid, we would need to be seeing a growth in excess deaths from pre covid years, fact is rate has been lower since the pandemic began.

All deaths are sad, but just because you dont like the truth that most would have died anyway doesnt mean it isnt true.

As always, certain posts allow you to firm your own position, and these two at different ends of the same continuum have done that for me.

Yes, people with serious underlying conditions have died earlier than they would without Covid, but many might have died from say a bad flu year, or from a fall and not being found for 24hrs.

Similarly, as someone who will be 80 at the end of the decade (hopefully) apparent cold hard facts about whether or not we are seeing excess deaths are just that, cold and hard.

If we look at things with compassion but with an eye to reality we can see that anyone who has a serious underlying condition could have an illness or event at any time that hastens their decline. If you have been around long enough you will have seen this first hand.

The time for working out whether the pandemic has led to excess deaths, and whether or not more deaths and serious illness could have been prevented (not just covid related), will come after the fact. Right now I feel we need to have compassion for those who have suffered loss, and be brave enough to go out and face the new world that covid has produced, trusting in our vaccines in my case.

 

[Pushka]

I'm not saying they don't have access, I'm saying the state needs to be very proactive when it comes to high risk people. And I say that as someone in that category. I did not receive a letter back in March last year nor a call from my GP saying you need to come in for your COVID vaccination. It was only through looking at the Department of Health website that I was able to determine I could get the jab now. Even then it required calling my GP to schedule an appointment, having him book me into a respiratory clinic and then me having to go through this process all over again before I could get my dose of AstraZeneca. If you know you're high risk and fight for it, then yeah you'll get all the treatment you want. But we shouldn't be demanding that of the most vulnerable in our community. I'm a 30 something with energy and IT skills to navigate all this bureaucracy, I doubt Gladys down the road whose 70 can do that.


The issue with COVID is by the time you call an ambulance, most of the treatments aren't very effective. Many of these treatments require you to take it immediately upon testing positive to get that 90% reduction in hospitalization.


You are right that there are a decent number of people that die with COVID. One thing that's difficult to untangle is whether COVID was the thing that pushed them over the edge to succumb to their other illnesses or was just noise. Regardless, as a society we do owe the vulnerable in our society a duty of care. After all, wouldn't you want that when you end up in that group someday?

It's unclear if lockdowns have had any impact with Delta or Omicron. For instance when we had that Delta outbreak last year in Sydney, the lockdowns at best slowed the rate of speed down. But Delta daily numbers kept creeping up. It was only when a sufficiently large percent of the population was fully vaccinated that we saw those numbers drop first into the low thousand, then into the hundreds then around hundred before Omicron hit. People who are high risk should be wearing N95 when it's feasible to do so and it should be handed out by the government as they do in the United States. If more vulnerable people were wearing N95s I can guarantee you fewer of them will be catching COVID and if fewer catch COVID fewer will end up in hospital/ICU, regardless of vaccination status.

-RooFlyer88

I'm at risk too from autoimmune issues and treatment but I don't wait for others to ensure my safety. I was vaccinated with one dose on the first day 1b was called and then three months later. Not via my GP as they didn't participate but by monitoring access on the health websites. Back in March 2020 I bought an oximeter to monitor oxygen levels. If we wait for authorities to check on my individual welfare then that's giving up. I've learnt to be my own advocate in this area. No one cares as much about me as me.

There are just too many real issues to expect a completely comprehensive response to every at risk person. We can't do perfect. Just the best we can.

As always, certain posts allow you to firm your own position, and these two at different ends of the same continuum have done that for me.

Yes, people with serious underlying conditions have died earlier than they would without Covid, but many might have died from say a bad flu year, or from a fall and not being found for 24hrs.

Similarly, as someone who will be 80 at the end of the decade (hopefully) apparent cold hard facts about whether or not we are seeing excess deaths are just that, cold and hard.

If we look at things with compassion but with an eye to reality we can see that anyone who has a serious underlying condition could have an illness or event at any time that hastens their decline. If you have been around long enough you will have seen this first hand.

The time for working out whether the pandemic has led to excess deaths, and whether or not more deaths and serious illness could have been prevented (not just covid related), will come after the fact. Right now I feel we need to have compassion for those who have suffered loss, and be brave enough to go out and face the new world that covid has produced, trusting in our vaccines in my case.

Indeed and you worded that perfectly for me. Mum was given a clean bill of health including blood tests at her residential care facility after 12 months at the age of 85. The very next week she had a massive stroke and died. No one or nothing to blame.

 

[Lynda2475]

plus I am only talking of those who had comorbidities

Which is the overwhelming majority of people dying with covid. At no stage in the pandemic (and certainly not not that vaccination rates are so high) have we seen more than a handful of people with no comorbidities dying with covid.

Of those that died with Covid and who had comorbidities, how many would actually be dead now if they had not have contracted covid? (Which was the thrust of my post)

And per my post the answer is most. Most deaths have been in the elderly, with commodities (dementia extremely common) and would have had the same poor outcome had they got the flu or a bad cold or even without any sort of respiratory ailment.

If there were excess deaths, there would be data to support covid is a driving force, yet deaths are actually down over all, which indicates the people succumbing to covid are largely those who would have died anyway.

Where there is any hastening due to covid it is highly unlikely that those people would have otherwise lived for decades, days at best.

WRT living with covid, you can see that death rates are highest with those who haven't kept up to date with their vaccines and in the elderly cohort:




The case fatality rate in the omicron period is extremely low to begin, if you deduct co-morbidities from these total to get cases that were genuinely solely due to covid rather than with merely covid they will be well and truly to the right of the decimal place.

 

[drron]

Covid has been a game changer for Pfizer. Their quaterly revenue had fallen ~ 30% from 2010 to the first quarter of 2021. Then came Comirnaty.


And their revenue for 2022 is now expected to be more than double that of 2020.

 

[Must...Fly!]

Should sell my drug company shares. It's going to be a pretty rude shock when it's realised 3 jabs a year isn't needed and competition arrives...really keen to see the stats on Novavax as a booster.

 

[drron]

Well AZ has now got provisional approval from the TGA as a booster.

TGA provisionally approves AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine as booster dose

The TGA has provisionally approved the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine, Vaxzevria, for use as a booster in individuals aged 18 years and over.

www.tga.gov.au