General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[MEL_Traveller]

This is over-simplified. What if the cause of the clotting is associated with the spike protein as some propose. Then if you can get blood clots from the vaccine, it is perhaps more likely you will get blood clots from Covid. So being unvaccinated and out in the real world where covid exists could still be more hazardous than having the vaccine. Now while we are Covid free I agree it is not the same risk assessment, but if as so many on here pine for, the borders are opened, then under 50s might find themselves in more danger rather than less by being unvaccinated.

We need to know more about the cause(s) of the clotting before we can have any chance of understanding risk.

True. I hadn’t thought of it in that way.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

The CEO of Pfizer says the pharmaceutical company's COVID-19 vaccine recipients will "likely" need a third dose between six to 12 months after full vaccination, followed by an annual shot.

Pfizer CEO believes a third dose of COVID vaccine might be needed

The pharmaceutical company's boss says COVID-19 vaccine recipients will "likely" need a third dose between six to 12 months after full vaccination, followed by an annual shot.

www.abc.net.au

Well they say the definition of a good business is one with repeat business.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

This is over-simplified. What if the cause of the clotting is associated with the spike protein as some propose. Then if you can get blood clots from the vaccine, it is perhaps more likely you will get blood clots from Covid. So being unvaccinated and out in the real world where covid exists could still be more hazardous than having the vaccine. Now while we are Covid free I agree it is not the same risk assessment, but if as so many on here pine for, the borders are opened, then under 50s might find themselves in more danger rather than less by being unvaccinated.

We need to know more about the cause(s) of the clotting before we can have any chance of understanding risk.

Yes that was the point I made above. The article I linked indicated:

The risk of CVT was 8 to 10 times higher in the 513,284 patients with a COVID-19 diagnosis than in the 489,871 vaccinees and 100 times greater than in the general population​

 

[serfty]

Edited to add: now it may just been poor writing, but that article seems to add the Pfizer and Moderna together vs AZ individually.

It is pretty clear to me re the study:

According to the study, 4 in 1 million people experience cerebral venous thrombosis after getting the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine, versus 5 in 1 million people for the AstraZeneca vaccine.

That indicates the chances of these blood clots are approximately:

Moderna: 0.000004
AsrtraZen: 0.000005
Pfizer: 0.000004

Note that the Moderna and Pfizer are expressed in the article as an average and with that the Pfizer could be higher or lower than the figure expressed for AstraZenica with the Moderna correspondingly adjusted in relation.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It is pretty clear to me re the study:

That indicates the chances of these blood clots are:

Moderna: 0.000004
AsrtraZen: 0.000005
Pfizer: 0.000004

Sounds low... except if you ramp up administration. As i mentioned previously, the USA administered 4.6 million doses in a single day two days ago. On that basis, 20 people will end up with clots. Doesn’t sound so good then

 

[mviy]

The CEO of Pfizer says the pharmaceutical company's COVID-19 vaccine recipients will "likely" need a third dose between six to 12 months after full vaccination, followed by an annual shot.

This does mean that vaccine candidates further behind in trials if they can be adapted to new variants and prove to be safe and effective could still make a good return as an option for booster shots.

 

[serfty]

Doesn’t sound so good then

Although if you consider the chances of dying from COVID-19 if you contract it can be expressed approximately as:

.021474

 

[Lynda2475]

Anyway it’s almost a good thing that all the vaccines in AU (Pfizer and AZ) are linked to clotting events because now it’s like Hobson’s choice just pick one and that’s that no more of this scare mongering.

The study referenced is yet to be peer reviewed, so it is not a given that risk is accepted as equal. Nor is it yet gaining enough media traction to take the stench off AZ for younger people. Time will tell.

Study shows vaccines carry much lower risk of blood clots than COVID-19

Research by Oxford University suggests all major vaccines carry a similar risk of rare clots, and all seem to have much lower risk than infection with COVID-19.

www.cbsnews.com

The key finding of the research, revealed Thursday as a "pre-print" study which has yet to be reviewed by other scientists, was that the risk of experiencing a blood clot in the brain was about 95 times higher for people who contract COVID-19 than in the general population.

Pfizer said that its own "comprehensive assessment of ongoing aggregate safety data... provided no evidence to conclude that arterial or venous thromboembolic events, with or without thrombocytopenia, are a risk associated with the use of our COVID-19 vaccine."

Pfizer noted that a CDC review of data had detected slightly more cases of CVT in people given the Johnson & Johnson vaccine in the U.S., but "no similar findings have been observed with the authorized Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine."

Even the authors of the Oxford pre-print study acknowledged that "all comparisons must be interpreted cautiously as data are still accruing."

"Suggesting that the complication [CVT] following one vaccine is similar to that of the other... it is impossible, the way this study was designed and conducted, to make that determination," Fauci told U.S. lawmakers on Thursday.

 

[Matt_01]

@rogerkambah @MEL_Traveller @OATEK and @jakeseven7 of course it is over simplified (massively over simplified) like others I have been reading the covid threads on this site and in the media for the past 12 months but have stayed away from making comments.

First and foremost I have no formal medical training, I would suggest that there are those who contribute to Aff who are media professionals, medical practitioners that deal with human patients, there are also dentists, vets, others with a PHD and any one else that can use the word DR in their title (think online course), Karen from facebook and then other Affer's all looking for their 5 minutes of fame.

I would like to be able to travel again and this afternoon decided to become a little antagonistic with the math question I was just putting it out there and that got more than one bite. If I now consider the comment @lovetravellingoz made I am now down to 0.0001% chance of dying from the vaccination side effects this is still far better odds than 2.1% from covid itself.

As I post this I noticed @serfty has thrown out some new numbers, at an initial glance these seem to be cases per 1M not a % value.

@MEL_Traveller 4.6M doses would be 4.6M x 4 so around 20 people with clots. 4.6M non vaccinated people at a 2.1% death rate is 9660 in simplified terms.

Just my 2 bobs worth and I will now go back to posting details of building our OWR itinerary, issues with J and F class seating, buggering up dates, getting stung with the london tax and all for trips that may or may not occur in early part or late 2022

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Although if you consider the chances of dying from COVID-19 if you contract it can be expressed approximately as:

.021474

Agree... but that’s where Australia being one of the few countries where the chances of dying from covid are, well, pretty much zero at the moment, that changes the risk assessment for many. It’s not like we *have* to get vaccinated at the moment like in USA, Brazil or Europe. we have a real choice.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Patient treated for blood clots after receiving Moderna vaccination

A man from Brighton told the Problem Solvers he developed blood clots after receiving the Moderna vaccine.

kdvr.com

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Deep vein thrombosis (DVT) occurring shortly after the second dose of mRNA SARS-CoV-2 vaccine

= Comirnaty, Pfizer/BioNTech

Here we describe a case of distal deep vein thrombosis occurring immediately days after the second dose of mRNA vaccine.

A 66-year-old woman received the first dose of mRNA Covid-19 vaccine (BNT162b2, Comirnaty, Pfizer/BioNTech) subcutaneously on January 4th, 2021, without any reported clinical problem; she was scheduled for the second dose on January 25th. Her medical history was unremarkable except for post-trauma left leg neuropathy. She never had previous thrombotic events; she had one successful delivery. Her body mass index was 23 kg/m2; she did not smoke or had no allergic problems; she intermittently took painkillers for the neuropathy. On January 26th, 24 h after the second vaccine dose, she received acetaminophen for persistent fever with chills, fatigue, malaise, and muscle pain. On January 27th, 48 h after the second vaccine dose, persistent fever was still present, and acute right calf pain appeared in the absence of trauma. On January 28th, she was admitted for evaluation at the emergency room because of persistent pain and inability to walk. Physical examination was unremarkable except for mild edema in the right calf. Blood tests (Blood count, INR, PTT, fibrinogen, renal and hepatic function) were normal, as notably was the D-dimer measurement. A Color-Doppler ultrasound scan revealed the presence of deep vein thrombosis involving the right peroneal vein and extending up to the popliteal vein, without signs of venous insufficiency. Thrombophilia screening was otherwise negative except for the presence of heterozygous FV Leiden mutation. The patient started apixaban 10 mg bid for 1 week, followed by 5 mg bid, with rapid symptoms resolution.

To our knowledge, this is the first reported case of DVT presenting as an adverse event post-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination.


The authors are all from Italy, so presumably the patient was from Italy.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

People taking Pfizer vaccine report blood clots more than Oxford's

More than a dozen countries in Europe have suspended the use of the AstraZeneca vaccine over concerns about blood clots but scientists insist there are no more than in the general population.

www.dailymail.co.uk

PUBLISHED: 22:41 AEST, 16 March 2021 | UPDATED: 04:23 AEST, 17 March 2021

 

[Princess Fiona]

Deep vein thrombosis (DVT) occurring shortly after the second dose of mRNA SARS-CoV-2 vaccine

= Comirnaty, Pfizer/BioNTech

Here we describe a case of distal deep vein thrombosis occurring immediately days after the second dose of mRNA vaccine.

A 66-year-old woman received the first dose of mRNA Covid-19 vaccine (BNT162b2, Comirnaty, Pfizer/BioNTech) subcutaneously on January 4th, 2021, without any reported clinical problem; she was scheduled for the second dose on January 25th. Her medical history was unremarkable except for post-trauma left leg neuropathy. She never had previous thrombotic events; she had one successful delivery. Her body mass index was 23 kg/m2; she did not smoke or had no allergic problems; she intermittently took painkillers for the neuropathy. On January 26th, 24 h after the second vaccine dose, she received acetaminophen for persistent fever with chills, fatigue, malaise, and muscle pain. On January 27th, 48 h after the second vaccine dose, persistent fever was still present, and acute right calf pain appeared in the absence of trauma. On January 28th, she was admitted for evaluation at the emergency room because of persistent pain and inability to walk. Physical examination was unremarkable except for mild edema in the right calf. Blood tests (Blood count, INR, PTT, fibrinogen, renal and hepatic function) were normal, as notably was the D-dimer measurement. A Color-Doppler ultrasound scan revealed the presence of deep vein thrombosis involving the right peroneal vein and extending up to the popliteal vein, without signs of venous insufficiency. Thrombophilia screening was otherwise negative except for the presence of heterozygous FV Leiden mutation. The patient started apixaban 10 mg bid for 1 week, followed by 5 mg bid, with rapid symptoms resolution.

To our knowledge, this is the first reported case of DVT presenting as an adverse event post-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination.


The authors are all from Italy, so presumably the patient was from Italy.

With all due respect to these Drs I see DVTs every single day of my working life.
There is a huge difference between this type of clotting and VITTS.

 

[drron]

Same experience for me as for Princess Fiona. DVTs are common and unrelated to the post vaccination clots.
In a 66 year old I would also be thinking of an underlying malignancy.

 

[Must...Fly!]

Although if you consider the chances of dying from COVID-19 if you contract it can be expressed approximately as:

.021474

So fortunate to be in Australia. But I feel looking for a zero risk treatment to a high risk disease is simply fantasy.

 

[k_sheep]

Agree with drron and PF above. Clots are super common.

The good news is they have already managed to isolate the anti-platelet antibody which seems to be the causative factor in these vaccine induced clots. And in a lovely piece of serendipity, they react with an assay most laboratories already have (for a similar thrombotic event, heparin inducted thrombocytopenia) so we already have a testing platform. And based on our knowledge of how that behaves, we already have treatment guidelines in place.

So it's not all doom and gloom. I'm still happily lining up to get AZ vaccination, despite being young and female and in the highest risk group.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Agree with drron and PF above. Clots are super common.

The good news is they have already managed to isolate the anti-platelet antibody which seems to be the causative factor in these vaccine induced clots. And in a lovely piece of serendipity, they react with an assay most laboratories already have (for a similar thrombotic event, heparin inducted thrombocytopenia) so we already have a testing platform. And based on our knowledge of how that behaves, we already have treatment guidelines in place.

So it's not all doom and gloom. I'm still happily lining up to get AZ vaccination, despite being young and female and in the highest risk group.

As referred to is this health alert?

HAN Archive - 00442 | Health Alert Network (HAN)

Health Alert Network (HAN). Provided by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

emergency.cdc.gov

 

[jakeseven7]

So fortunate to be in Australia. But I feel looking for a zero risk treatment to a high risk disease is simply fantasy.

Some people still struggling to understand this but happily pop other pills without even reading the label that have far higher risk events associated with them.

Plus Australia will open international borders and covid will re-enter this country so if people haven’t chosen to be vaccinated then honestly by then it will be their own fault.

 

[Must...Fly!]

Plus Australia will open international borders and covid will re-enter this country so if people haven’t chosen to be vaccinated then honestly by then it will be their own fault.

Depends. At this rate, you and I might be long dead by the time borders reopen....