General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[mviy]

This could be very bad news if people decide not to get vaccinated at all in too large numbers.

Development of further vaccines under development which could prove safer need to be encouraged.

 

[OATEK]

This could be very bad news if people decide not to get vaccinated at all in too large numbers.

Development of further vaccines under development which could prove safer need to be encouraged.

I get what you are saying, but how do we know whether safer vaccines can be made - it could be a bit of a pipe dream.

 

[jakeseven7]

I get what you are saying, but how do we know whether safer vaccines can be made - it could be a bit of a pipe dream.

They can't.

Clotting risks of Pfizer are known. Its not surprising. And there will be more.

 

[mviy]

I get what you are saying, but how do we know whether safer vaccines can be made - it could be a bit of a pipe dream.

For example The Flinders Uni guy who’s developing a Vaccine suggested that he’s using an older more proven method of developing a vaccine. That doesn’t necessarily mean it will be any safer, but still worth exploring

 

[Lynda2475]

with blood clots

Need to understand what type of blood clots. The 3 clotting cases in Australia linked to AZ vaccine have been thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) aka clotting with a low platelet count. TTS side effect is why AZ has been banned and/or had its used limited in many places around the world.

So if this latest case is TTS then worry. However, if it is a DVT or some other more common disorder then could just as easily been caused by something else.

According to the Guardian (not the best newspaper I know): "Prof Jim Buttery, head of epidemiology and signal detection at the Victorian immunisation safety service, said that of the more than 70m Pfizer doses given globally, there had been only two reports of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, both in the US. However, neither of those cases had the low platelets seen in the AstraZeneca cases."

The veracity of the Oxford Uni study claiming that Moderna & Pfizer cause clotting, has been questioned by Anthony Fauci and is not yet peer reviewed, so cant be taken as gospel yet. If the link was as strong as AZ we would be seeing limits imposed on their use too. I linked to article re lack of peer review a few pages back.

 

[drron]

Though here is a report from an American doctors group that accepts there is a risk with the mRNA vaccines.

Blood Clotting Needs to Be Watched with All COVID Vaccines, States the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS)

/PRNewswire/ -- More than a dozen countries worldwide temporarily stopped administering the Oxford-AstraZeneca COVID vaccine, notes the Association of American...

www.prnewswire.com

It is quite possible that all covid vaccines might be associated with clotting.

 

[sjk]

Great to see the issue of vaccine sovereignty addressed... now Australia will be able to produce its own vaccine for its own population to refuse due to the most minuscule risks.

I don't see Victoria outbidding (say) Singapore when it comes to a regional hub...

 

[Lynda2475]

It is quite possible that all covid vaccines might be associated with clotting.

Possible sure, but not widely accepted as proven - that could of course change.

 

[Seat0B]

They can't.

Clotting risks of Pfizer are known. Its not surprising. And there will be more.

So really, is there any point in AZ for over 50s and Pfizer for under 50s? Should it just be whatever is available for whoever turns up?

 

[Lynda2475]

So really, is there any point in AZ for over 50s and Pfizer for under 50s? Should it just be whatever is available for whoever turns up?

Yes, unless advice re Pfizer changes.

Of course anyone under 50 who wants to accept risk of AZ and is currently eligible for vaccination is already free to sign a waiver and accept the risk and take a AZ jab.

 

[mviy]

So really, is there any point in AZ for over 50s and Pfizer for under 50s? Should it just be whatever is available for whoever turns up?

Quite possibly. Though clotting could well be a coincidence or just happening a little earlier than it would have happened anyway.

To properly assess things you need to study large groups of much the same people, some with no vaccine, some with AZ, some with Pfizer, some with Moderna etc. and see what happens. As there's a really low incidence of clotting even small problems with how similar the groups studied are could have a big impact on results. Doing multiple studies of completely different groups of people (i.e. none of the same individuals in each study, no overlap) could help with that, a bit.

 

[drron]

Possible sure, but not widely accepted as proven - that could of course change.

No but the cause of the rare blood clots is said to be associated with a cross reaction of spike protein antibodies with platelets.That is close to being called in covid positive patients with clots.
And guess what,the mRNA vaccines stimulate antibodies to the spike protein so will be no great surprise to me if the association becomes widely accepted.

 

[jakeseven7]

Though here is a report from an American doctors group that accepts there is a risk with the mRNA vaccines.

Blood Clotting Needs to Be Watched with All COVID Vaccines, States the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS)

/PRNewswire/ -- More than a dozen countries worldwide temporarily stopped administering the Oxford-AstraZeneca COVID vaccine, notes the Association of American...

www.prnewswire.com

It is quite possible that all covid vaccines might be associated with clotting.

I think your 'quite possible' is moving quickly towards 'more than / highly likely' them all being linked to clotting

AZ - yes, Pfizer - yes, Moderna - yes..... who is next?

The technology and design of them hardly makes it surprising that they are being linked.

 

[Pushka]

Is it possible that those who have developed the severe clotting reaction may also have reacted extremely poorly to an actual Covid infection?

 

[mviy]

Is it possible that those who have developed the severe clotting reaction may also have reacted extremely poorly to an actual Covid infection?

Yes. Considering the spike protein is the likely cause. However deliberately infecting people who have had clotting from the vaccine would be extremely unethical so it could take some time before this can be fully verified.

 

[jonboixxx]

Possible sure, but not widely accepted as proven - that could of course change.

So, possible. Did you read that back?

 

[Lynda2475]

So, possible. Did you read that back?

huh?

Someone keeps claiming its an accepted fact Pfizer causes the same rare clotting condition as AZ but thats simply not true. The legitimacy of the yet to be peer reviewed study has been questioned by experts including Dr Fauci and examples of DVT are irrelevant as not what the concern with AZ is.

Possible it may be, but proven it is not. Really not that hard to understand.

 

[jonboixxx]

Someone keeps claiming its an accepted fact Pfizer causes the same rare clotting condition as AZ but thats simply not true.

Not sure who "someone" is? Why not quote them?

The legitimacy of the yet to be peer reviewed study has been questioned by experts including Dr Fauci

I'm sure Dr Fauci wouldn't be my relevant arbiter of choice.
Your quote, "Possible sure, but not widely accepted as proven - that could of course change." was neither here nor there, was it?
It appears to be equivocating?

 

[drron]

huh?

Someone keeps claiming its an accepted fact Pfizer causes the same rare clotting condition as AZ but thats simply not true. The legitimacy of the yet to be peer reviewed study has been questioned by experts including Dr Fauci and examples of DVT are irrelevant as not what the concern with AZ is.

Possible it may be, but proven it is not. Really not that hard to understand.

But there is no absolute proof that nRNA vaccines do not cause VIPIT or are safer than AZ.

With the mRNA vaccines there have also been reported cases of thrombocytopenia and bleeding.Now in HIT there are also some patients who bleed and this can include cerebral haemorrhage and so possible death.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2106315

As well the mRNA vaccines have a higher incidence of anaphylaxis which also can be fatal

 

[JohnM]

As well the mRNA vaccines have a higher incidence of anaphylaxis which also can be fatal

Don't start another panic leading to further vaccination hesitancy...