General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[drron]

Why is everyone so negative towards the AZ vaccine?
I will be thankful for whichever one I receive and I just don’t understand the angst against AZ

I guess it is because people just don't understand the limitations of medical trials.They believe that because the Pfizer and Moderna phase 3 trials showed 90+% efficacy that that is what is going to happen in the real world.However if the trial was done again with exactly the same number of participants those numbers almost certainly wouldn't be exactly the same.Maybe higher,maybe lower.

Then presume that the efficacy of AZ was 62% it must be inferior.
The real test is when the vaccines are rolled out in large numbers in the real world.I have linked before the UK results with the AZ vaccine which prevents 76% of transmission after 1 dose and 82% after 2 doses.Haven't seen the figures with the other 2 on reduction in Tranmission.

 

[jase05]

I guess it is because people just don't understand the limitations of medical trials.They believe that because the Pfizer and Moderna phase 3 trials showed 90+% efficacy that that is what is going to happen in the real world.However if the trial was done again with exactly the same number of participants those numbers almost certainly wouldn't be exactly the same.Maybe higher,maybe lower.

Then presume that the efficacy of AZ was 62% it must be inferior.
The real test is when the vaccines are rolled out in large numbers in the real world.I have linked before the UK results with the AZ vaccine which prevents 76% of transmission after 1 dose and 82% after 2 doses.Haven't seen the figures with the other 2 on reduction in Tranmission.

Thanks for that.
I guess I’m getting a bit tired of the constant knocking of the AZ vaccine as some “inferior” vaccine. Already too many anti vaxxers and doubters out there as it is.

 

[Lynda2475]

Why is everyone so negative towards the AZ vaccine?

Because it currently appears there are 3 superior options in terms of performance. And when it comes to medical care I want the best, not good enough.

If you compare the Israel graph (100% Pfizer) with UK chart (mix of Pfizer and Az), the decline in cases and serious illness is greater in Israel.

My Mum has a compromised immune system, so I want her to get the best option as her response to any vaccine will be lower than average, so she needs the one likely to generate the strongest immune response.

Given I have to wait ages to get any jab and will only be offered AZ, I can wait for more real word results, to decide how aggressively I pursue an upgrade (after receiving the AZ one).

*if* AZ continues to under perform other vaccines in real world, then I want to have an option to pay for a better one.

Wanting the best option is nothing like being an anti vaxxer.

I pay to keep all my other vaccinations up to date (indeed I paid for HPV vaccine which was only available under Medicare for younger people), so if I want something better than the freebie there ought to be a pathway to buy it.

Same as I never use generic drugs, and pay for the more expensive branded ones because although they have same active ingredients other components different. Why you may as? Well in past have had a reaction to generic drug that I never had before or since with the branded version of the same.

 

[OATEK]

Personally i do not feel politicians getting the vaccine first actually instills any extra confidence, as a population Aussies are generally pro-immunisation. But surely seeing ScoMo and then Kelly get it is enough. More politicians doeent give more confidence it actually creates resentment from those who haveagreater health need.

I find it appaling that Pfizer is being given to some state Premiers and CHOs, selfish as none are in high risk category based on age and none interact directly with Covid positive cases.

Gladys and Dr Chant have both stated they will wait for the Oxford vaccine and not queue jump, pity other jurisdictions arent likewise saving the very limited pfizer doses for those who need it most.

Given the drip feed supply delivery of Pfizer over the next 10 months, and timeframe for completing phase 1a and 1b, a large portion of 1b (and possibly some of 1a) are going to end up with Oxford AZ, not Pfizer.

Feds really should be offering a grant for CSIRO or other company to eetablish an onshore capability to make MRNA (and other new generation vaccine). Should be in any state/territory other than Vic to ensure geographic distance so no risk a natural disaster takes down both local supply chains. It would pay for itself, as MRNA tech is the way forward forward and we could be main supplier in AsiaPac.

There was definite news report last week of Vic being given extra pfizer doses above original allocation, will have to search for it tonight from laptop, too hard to do on mobile.

@drron or @Princess Fiona is there any credible research yet on consequences of a person having more than one vaccine?

Based on Aus plan i will end up with Oxford, but should additional doses of Pfizer or Moderna or even Novavax become available (all which currently appear to offer better protection, and be effective against current mutations) i would be keen to upgrade my protection.

I am a little concerned due to lower production costs and CSLs older technology, Australia is being locked into potentially inferior option long term. I understwmd CSL could pivot to making Novovax as within their capability and supposed to be more effective. But if over course of this year mrna vaccines continue to show better performance elsewhere i dont want to be denied that. Im sure im not the only one who having got oxford would happily travel overseas (medical tourism) to get a better vaccine provided it isnt dangerous to do so.

I suspect many who will delay getting avaccine, may bedoing so to increase their chances of getting a choice.

I am not sure we are representative of all Australians. I get the idea that if the national leadership is arguing for us all to get the jab, then they have to be prepared to lead the way.

 

[Lynda2475]

I am not sure we are representative of all Australians. I get the idea that if the national leadership is arguing for us all to get the jab, then they have to be prepared to lead the way.

So Scomo and Kelly got it, bucks stop with them, don't really need to see State Premieres and state CHOs queue jump too.

I actually think seeing oldies get it and then following up with the same oldies for next dose, will better show no ill effect.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

There was definite news report last week of Vic being given extra pfizer doses above original allocation, will have to search for it tonight from laptop, too hard to do on mobile.

You were claiming that Vic were being given more doses than NSW, which is a quite different thing to what you have just written.

Based on the reports of what has been allocated it would seem that the healthcare workers in Victoria had originally been allocated too few doses and this was addressed. So change made not as claimed due to "whinging", but instead based on need.

And listening to the interview it would seem that it was across the board Australia wide and not just Victoria. It was just that they were talking to a Victorian audience (just as in my last 3 weeks in Qld where the media framed things for Qld listeners). So presumably the allocation for frontline healthcare workers in 1a in all states was increased.

The public reports today seem to indicate that 12K of 60K week one doses have been allocated to Vic. ie 20% of the weekly allocation for 26% of Australia's population. So if Vic is getting more than NSW as you claimed, then it is not due to Victoria receiving too many doses.

I am also wary of AMA press releases, however (note that I recommend listening to the radio interview for a better understanding):

Victoria's Pfizer COVID vaccine allocation doubled following concerns about doses for healthcare workers​

The President of the Australian Medical Association's Victoria branch said he has received assurance from the Federal Government that Victoria's allocation of the Pfizer coronavirus vaccine has been doubled.​

​

The announcement was made after Julian Rait raised concerns on Mornings that Victoria didn't have enough doses of the Pfizer jab to cover all frontline health and quarantine workers.​

​

Earlier, Mornings learnt that public health networks had been told to cull their lists of frontline workers eligible for the Pfizer vaccine, so the Federal Government could administer its privately run immunisation program of aged care staff and residents.​

​

"I wouldn’t argue with the fact aged care residents and staff are obviously an important priority, but it effectively means that there is about a half of what we would have expected for the rest," Mr Rait told Virginia Trioli.​

​

Following his interview on Mornings, Mr Rait said the Federal Health department contacted him to say Victoria's allocation had doubled.​

​

"That means that there'll be more-than-sufficient doses of Pfizer-BioNTech we hope, but if in the event that's not the case, there will be a supplementation from the AstraZeneca vaccine."​

Victoria's Pfizer COVID vaccine allocation doubled following concerns about doses for healthcare workers

The Federal Government made the announcement after Julian Rait from the Australian Medical Association raised concerns on Mornings that Victoria didn't have enough doses of the Pfizer vaccine to cover all frontline health and quarantine workers.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Pushka]

Gladys and Dr Chant have both stated they will wait for the Oxford vaccine and not queue jump, pity other jurisdictions arent likewise saving the very limited pfizer doses for those who need it most.

Gladys does seem to have a good sense of public sentiment.

I tend to agree about all the Politicians lining up for their shots - their fans likely will get one anyway and it won't convince others. Spurrier has quite a cult following in SA so maybe that's a draw card. But I think a much more effective role model would be someone from each state that is elderly (so not be seen as queue jumping) but also admired on a bipartisan basis. There are many people in every community who would qualify for that and convince all but the anti vaxxers.

As far as AZ is concerned, the GP was concerned that she thought the jury was out as to whether I should get it for the same reason I can't have the shingles one. She was going to do some checking. I can only trust for those who can't have the AZ that the pollies haven't sucked up all the Pfizer jabs. Because I think the jab will be the personal ticket to freedom I will have the one provided to me but who knows if that will be a good thing or not.

 

[drron]

Because it currently appears there are 3 superior options in terms of performance. And when it comes to medical care I want the best, not good enough.

If you compare the Israel graph (100% Pfizer) with UK chart (mix of Pfizer and Az), the decline in cases and serious illness is greater in Israel.

My Mum has a compromised immune system, so I want her to get the best option as her response to any vaccine will be lower than average, so she needs the one likely to generate the strongest immune response.

Given I have to wait ages to get any jab and will only be offered AZ, I can wait for more real word results, to decide how aggressively I pursue an upgrade (after receiving the AZ one).

*if* AZ continues to under perform other vaccines in real world, then I want to have an option to pay for a better one.

Wanting the best option is nothing like being an anti vaxxer.

I pay to keep all my other vaccinations up to date (indeed I paid for HPV vaccine which was only available under Medicare for younger people), so if I want something better than the freebie there ought to be a pathway to buy it.

Same as I never use generic drugs, and pay for the more expensive branded ones because although they have same active ingredients other components different. Why you may as? Well in past have had a reaction to generic drug that I never had before or since with the branded version of the same.

Sorry but you are comparing a country where 50% of the population have had 1 shot of the vaccine and 25% have had 2 shots with the UK where 25%have had 1 shot and about 1% 2 shots.Would be something wrong if they weren't doing better.

 

[jb747]

..... the UK where 255% have had 1 shot and about 1% 2 shots.Would be something wrong if they weren't doing better.

I'm looking forward to us achieving 255%.

(Yes, I know....)

 

[drron]

I'm looking forward to us achieving 255%.

(Yes, I know....)

Thanks.I did correct the % but forgot to take out the extra 5.

 

[DC3]

I am not sure we are representative of all Australians ...

 

[Lynda2475]

I can only read results as they are shared, there is not enough real world evidence to show that AZ is as good as other options right now.

There will be more data by the time im eligible for a vaccine, you all keep ignoring the part where I said *if* it continues to under perform I want extra options.

Either way no one seems to be able to answer my question as to risk of receiving 2 different types of vaccines.

I would think this type of study would be important as over time people may want/need to switch vaccine types due to better results, virus mutations or simply availability of supply.

For example yellow fever vaccines used to only last 7 years, but the new one doesn't need repeat doses, it's been approved such that once you have the new one it it is life long protection.

I don't see how asking questions re contra indications for having multiple vaccines and expressing concern over possibly not getting best option is considered spreading misinformation.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Personally i do not feel politicians getting the vaccine first actually instills any extra confidence, as a population Aussies are generally pro-immunisation. But surely seeing ScoMo and then Kelly get it is enough. More politicians doeent give more confidence it actually creates resentment from those who haveagreater health need.

I find it appaling that Pfizer is being given to some state Premiers and CHOs, selfish as none are in high risk category based on age and none interact directly with Covid positive cases.

Gladys and Dr Chant have both stated they will wait for the Oxford vaccine and not queue jump, pity other jurisdictions arent likewise saving the very limited pfizer doses for those who need it most.

Given the drip feed supply delivery of Pfizer over the next 10 months, and timeframe for completing phase 1a and 1b, a large portion of 1b (and possibly some of 1a) are going to end up with Oxford AZ, not Pfizer.

Feds really should be offering a grant for CSIRO or other company to eetablish an onshore capability to make MRNA (and other new generation vaccine). Should be in any state/territory other than Vic to ensure geographic distance so no risk a natural disaster takes down both local supply chains. It would pay for itself, as MRNA tech is the way forward forward and we could be main supplier in AsiaPac.

There was definite news report last week of Vic being given extra pfizer doses above original allocation, will have to search for it tonight from laptop, too hard to do on mobile.

@drron or @Princess Fiona is there any credible research yet on consequences of a person having more than one vaccine?

Based on Aus plan i will end up with Oxford, but should additional doses of Pfizer or Moderna or even Novavax become available (all which currently appear to offer better protection, and be effective against current mutations) i would be keen to upgrade my protection.

I am a little concerned due to lower production costs and CSLs older technology, Australia is being locked into potentially inferior option long term. I understwmd CSL could pivot to making Novovax as within their capability and supposed to be more effective. But if over course of this year mrna vaccines continue to show better performance elsewhere i dont want to be denied that. Im sure im not the only one who having got oxford would happily travel overseas (medical tourism) to get a better vaccine provided it isnt dangerous to do so.

I suspect many who will delay getting avaccine, may bedoing so to increase their chances of getting a choice.

I’m not sure the NSW Premier said she would not queue jump. In fact NSW Premier said words to the effect that she would be first in line for the Astra Zeneca one. Who knows whether she was being literal or not.

 

[Lynda2475]

You were claiming that Vic were being given more doses than NSW, which is a quite different thing to what you have just written.

Incorrect.

My first post about this last week was that Vic had requested more doses and received more doses. There were no reports at the time of any other states supply being increased, so I questioned why special treatment. If you are correct that all other states also got increases then great, but I've read nothing about NSW getting any extra even though they are the biggest state do the heavy lifting on arrivals.

Someone else then posted numbers suggesting Vic's allocation was now higher than NSW.

My post subsequent post questioned why would Vic get more doses than NsW given smaller population size and lack of risk as not taking overseas arrivals, and taking far fewer than NsW when they have taken arrivals.

I was not the person who said their total was higher overall.

Vic are generally less.forth coming with reporting that NSW, so I look forward to tomorrow's report on how many got vaccinated today and what category they were I.e. oldies HQ hospital or polling.

 

[Lynda2475]

I’m not sure the NSW Premier said she would not queue jump. In fact NSW Premier said words to the effect that she would be first in line for the Astra Zeneca one. Who knows whether she was being literal or not.

Her queue jumping statement was last week. She talked extensively about getting vaccinated when she was eligible.

Today she expressed confidence in AZ, I don't think that she was suggesting she would be first in state to get it but first in line when her category comes up which is what she stated last week.

 

[Must...Fly!]

Is two doses of Pfizer needed, at least at this stage? New data says - maybe not.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc2036242?articleTools=true

 

[Port Power]

Are you able to say anything about how the Pfizer one is going to be administered in GP clinics or will that will be requiring only Central Public Hospital facilities? If their logistics can cope, GP clinics will have access to it for an absolute maximum of 5 days after removal from the extremely low temp environment so administering it in a clinic is possible but also likely to go very awry.

I thought the Pfizer vaccine has to thaw overnight in fridges and then be diluted with saline and used in within 5 hours. Hence booking appointment. Not five days?

 

[Pushka]

I thought the Pfizer vaccine has to thaw overnight in fridges and then be diluted with saline and used in within 5 hours. Hence booking appointment. Not five days?

Just a paste from CDC document. I have no idea what this will mean in real life.

Refrigerator
Before mixing, the vaccine may be stored in the refrigerator between 2°C and 8°C (36°F and 46°F) for up to 120 hours (5 days). After 120 hours (5 days), remove any remaining vials from the refrigerator and discard following the manufacturer's and your jurisdiction's guidance on proper disposal......

Once mixed, vaccine can be left at room temperature
(2°C to 25°C [35°F to 77°F]) for up to 6 hours.
• Discard any remaining vaccine after 6 hours.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/downloads/storage-summary.pdf

 

[lovetravellingoz]

This is what you posted.

Lynda2475 said:
Seems very very wrong that Vic are getting more doses than NSW especially since NSW has a population 20% larger, and NSW is actually taking overseas arrivals unlike Vic.

and then;


Also nothing forthcoming yet from you own your claim that Vic got more than what the forumula dictated based on Andrew "whinging". Whereas the only material I can find discussed why when a reasoned argument was put back to the Feds on their understanding of the forumala as you call it the healthworker totals were increased with the AMA rep inferring this was also done nationally the increase was made, and an increase which is in line with what other states are now getting.

So



Your actual post above indicates otherwise. And indeed you were the only person to make such a claim.



PS HappyFlyerFamily had a number of stats. None had NSW with less doses than Vic.

 

[Lynda2475]

This is what you posted

That was not my first post on the matter and that post was in reply to another user post that showed Vic with higher numbers. I questioned the fairness i didnt post the higher numbers nor any numbers.

and then

I standby that post. It related to the report last week (and my original concern) where extra doses given to Vic (i didnt say their total was higher than NSW in that post nor the first time i posted about it last week) after Vic complained at press conference.

I think public deserve to know why Vic were given more doses than the original allocation which came from the Feds - why do their needs differ from the formula used for every other state? No other state was complaining about receiving inadequate allocation on that day, which should have been the case had the Fed rules been flawed.