General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[lovetravellingoz]

That was not my first post on the matter and that post was in reply to another user post that showed Vic with higher numbers. I questioned the fairness i didnt post the higher numbers nor any numbers.



I standby that post. It related to the report last week (and my original concern) where extra doses given to Vic (i didnt say their total was higher than NSW in that post nor the first time i posted about it last week) after Vic complained at press conference.

I think public deserve to know why Vic were given more doses than the original allocation which came from the Feds - why do their needs differ from the formula used for every other state? No other state was complaining about receiving inadequate allocation on that day, which should have been the case had the Fed rules been flawed.

.
Can you post both posts then? I cannot seem to find them. Especially the post by another another user post that showed Vic with higher numbers?

The first post I can see is by HappyFlyerFamily. It does not have that statement at all, and so who posted the post you are referring to? As far as I can see you are the only poster with such a claim. Are you sure that you have not misinterpreted what HappyFlyerFamily posted? It is after that post, that your posts and claims appear on this topic.

ABC news re: initial vaccine distribution - not sure how accurate or complete the numbers are....so calmly take with a grain of salt.

Here is the plan for the vaccine roll out in each state and territory​

• NSW will aim vaccinate 35,000 frontline workers within the first three weeks
• The Victorian Government will have 12,000 doses for the first week of phase 1a and up to 59,000 doses for the first four weeks
• Queensland will have 100 doses for the Gold Coast tomorrow and will aim to vaccinate 27,000 key workers in the first month
• South Australia will aim to vaccinate 1,726 frontline workers at Adelaide Airport and the medi-hotel system this week and will have 12,000 for the next three weeks
• About 5,000 doses will be administered by mid-March with about 1,100 of those reserved for aged and disability care
• In the ACT, about 4,000 doses have been flagged for the first week
• Tasmania and the Northern Territory won't start their roll out tomorrow
• About 5,000 doses will be coming to WA each week for the first three weeks

Tasmania will begin their vaccination rollout on Tuesday and will have 2,340 doses ready for the first three weeks, which will double to 4,680 from the fourth week as phase 1b begins.

The rollout will begin in the Top End next week, with about 3,000 vaccinations set to be offered to the most high-risk groups as part of the first phase.

Those in the second phase are expected to receive vaccinations in mid-to-late March, but the wider population shouldn't expect a vaccination until the second half of 2021.

I think public deserve to know why Vic were given more doses than the original allocation which came from the Feds - why do their needs differ from the formula used for every other state? No other state was complaining about receiving inadequate allocation on that day, which should have been the case had the Fed rules been flawed.

Do you have a source that you can share for your claim that the Vic needs are different?

I have looked and the only reference I can find is the radio interview I posted with the AMA which explained what happened, and that indicated that the needs are the same. You are only person that I have read that has stated that the needs are different.

From the AMA interview an entirely appropriate approach was made to the Federal Government.

You may of course be able to post other material sheds light on your claims on Vic needs being different.


The radio interview (made well before the day of your post) that I already posted is:

Victoria's Pfizer COVID vaccine allocation doubled following concerns about doses for healthcare workers​

The Federal Government made the announcement after Julian Rait from the Australian Medical Association raised concerns on Mornings that Victoria didn't have enough doses of the Pfizer vaccine to cover all frontline health and quarantine workers.
9mins 41secs
Mon 15 Feb 2021, 8:30am

 

[Lynda2475]

Do you have a source that you can share for your claim that the Vic needs are different?

It is not for me to prove that Vic needs are different its for Vic to to explain why the original Fed allocation which used same rules for all states, resulted in adequate allocation for everyone other state and territory but them?

You seem to go out of your way to disect my posts. To even the most casual of observers you are clearly looking to provoke a fight and Im not wasting anymore time correcting you when you take my posts out of context or attribute an intent or meaning that isnt there. I know what i said and the context in which i said it.

You dont have to agree with me and its clear you are never going to concede that I have a right to question the motives and decisions of the states (especially if its Victoria).

Sometimes other people hear an interview you didnt, or have a opinion you dont agree with, you dont have to spend hours trying to start and win an unecessary war, you can just agree to disagree and move on.

Im not biting anymore, AFF was always friendly you are making it significantly less so.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

It is not for me to prove that Vic needs are different its for Vic to to explain why the original Fed allocation which used same rules for all states, resulted in adequate allocation for everyone other state and territory but them?

Again you have no source for this at all do you? Nor do you have a source for Vic being allocated more doses than NSW? If you are going to makes such claims, then you should not be surprised to asked what they are based on.

Why should the Vic Gov have to explain a theory of yours that no one else, including the media, seems to be the case?

Too date you have offered nothing to substantiate any of your claims and you just keep repeating the theory that rules are different for Vic.

I will go with the ABC Radio interview then, I that posted the link to, with the AMA which explains that the issue was that an appropriate 1a category was not allocated the correct allocation, but that this was adjusted so that it now does. ie The AMA pointed out that the rules as you call them were not be being properly followed.

Vic has exactly the same 1a as every other state and territory. There is no favouritism. The are not two sets of rules.

 

[dajop]

ts. Example - frontline workers only get it if they can show proof of employment. But the lower caste Uber eats delivery dude doing the pizza run, or the lowly laundry washerwoman, casual pathology driver handling q'tine items will be ineligible as it stands. These unofficial transient nobodies with huge high velocity public external contacts, will probably be Victorias next 1 billion dollar lockdown. N

If you go to the Australian Government vaccine eligibility checker it clearly indicates "You will need to provide proof of occupation to demonstrate your eligibility before you receive your vaccination." This is not a unique Victorian requirement.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Estimated Day 1 Vaccinations numbers from Covidlive (and as they are only media estimates take with that HappyFlyerFamily grain of salt). Also it would not surprise me if the figures below do not include the age care vaccination program that the Feds are directly deploying.




My guess is that they will bounce around a lot for for a while until everything is up and running properly.

 

[ethernet]

Is two doses of Pfizer needed, at least at this stage? New data says - maybe not.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc2036242?articleTools=true

Excellent.
Many know that the trials were designed for approval and market share for being first(Profit). You have to wonder if the booster of 10% or less is worth it, if the prime objective - death and disability is ticked.
You would want to revisit animal numbers if the correlation was high and fitted real world, sort of.
The UK wisely saw delaying the booster with AZ was in line with OR principles and observations. - until an age segment busts that assumption.
mrna works because the immune system does not have to think too hard, just reproduce the canned solution - like cheating really.
The AZ vaccine requires the body to work it out a bit - so initial efficacy may be less and take longer. However the body may have a crib of sorts should it spot a new variant/mutation. Thus Drron may have a point. The energy and effort wasted? for AZ may have a yet unknown silver lining, such as lasting/durable, or over time one dose getting up to 90+ percent. But right now fastest and strongest vax is required - except for au and nz where we can without casualty, wait 3 months.

Or it just might mean not eating pork non kosher food makes the vaccine 10% more effective. (ducks).

 

[RooFlyer]

Estimated Day 1 Vaccinations numbers from Covidlive (and as they are only media estimates take with that HappyFlyerFamily grain of salt). Also it would not surprise me if the figures below do not include the age care vaccination program that the Feds are directly deploying.

Fact check. In Tasmania, there were only the Federal aged care vaccinations today, unless there were a few 'unofficial' or test vaccinations of the other, as the state-controlled vaccine only arrived in the state this morning I think.

'We're lucky': Aged care residents among first Tasmanians to have COVID-19 jab

Aged care residents in Tasmania's north and north-west are receiving some of the first coronavirus vaccinations in the country, with frontline workers to follow tomorrow and the Deputy Premier asking everyone to "roll up their sleeves".

www.abc.net.au

 

[ethernet]

If you go to the Australian Government vaccine eligibility checker it clearly indicates "You will need to provide proof of occupation to demonstrate your eligibility before you receive your vaccination." This is not a unique Victorian requirement.

I believe I mentioned edge cases, not a committee derived solution. If you have one coffee run boy making 20 hospital runs per day, each 8 minutes on or in hospital building, say 160 minutes. Lets say he is 30% in A&E (Ambo drivers get hungry), 30% foyer reception, and 40% panting at room delivery runs. Who doubles as an uber driver because he lives close by. Or the hospital priest. Both probably visit the nurses stations . It seems a bloody good idea to test these frequent visitors, or jab them with AZ now, and hope nothing else goes bung in the next 12 weeks.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

Fact check. In Tasmania, there were only the Federal aged care vaccinations today, unless there were a few 'unofficial' or test vaccinations of the other, as the state-controlled vaccine only arrived in the state this morning I think.

'We're lucky': Aged care residents among first Tasmanians to have COVID-19 jab

Aged care residents in Tasmania's north and north-west are receiving some of the first coronavirus vaccinations in the country, with frontline workers to follow tomorrow and the Deputy Premier asking everyone to "roll up their sleeves".

www.abc.net.au

Thank you for the extra information and clarification..

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

I believe I mentioned edge cases, not a committee derived solution. If you have one coffee run boy making 20 hospital runs per day, each 8 minutes on or in hospital building, say 160 minutes. Lets say he is 30% in A&E (Ambo drivers get hungry), 30% foyer reception, and 40% panting at room delivery runs. Who doubles as an uber driver because he lives close by. Or the hospital priest. Both probably visit the nurses stations . It seems a bloody good idea to test these frequent visitors, or jab them with AZ now, and hope nothing else goes bung in the next 12 weeks.

Since the covid era, much more controls and ‘gates’ have been introduced, so the examples of coffee deliveries into hospitals is less likely.....and 8 minutes of time of exposure doesn’t sound right.

The main risk right now is quarantine and covid wards. Not most general or emergency hospital wards as there aren’t many community cases right now (only 1 in ICU).

I believe Astra Zeneca has a few more days to go before it’s available and in stock.

 

[burmans]

If you compare the Israel graph (100% Pfizer) with UK chart (mix of Pfizer and Az), the decline in cases and serious illness is greater in Israel.

Or an alternate and probably more likely explanation is that Israel have vaccinated a hell of a lot more people than the UK. More people have had the second dose in Israel than in the UK and given the fact two are recommended this may possibly be a reason too.

 

[Must...Fly!]

If you compare the Israel graph (100% Pfizer) with UK chart (mix of Pfizer and Az), the decline in cases and serious illness is greater in Israel.

That isn't scientific analysis.

 

[Must...Fly!]

That isn't scientific analysis.

But if you want some scientific analysis from Scotland health services...(disclaimer: not yet peer reviewed).

Scroll to the tables at the bottom if all you want is the data and not the words.

https://www.ed.ac.uk/files/atoms/files/scotland_firstvaccinedata_preprint.pdf

 

[drron]

Very interesting @Must...Fly! .So the AZ was used more in the older age groups and was just as effective as the Pfizer vaccine after 1 dose in preventing hospitalisations.
.

Added value of this study
UK policy for use of vaccines against COVID-19 involves an offer of a first dose followed by a second dose 12 weeks later. To our knowledge, this is the first study of COVID-19 vaccine effect against hospitalisation for an entire nation after a single dose of vaccine. We found that a single dose of BNT162b2 COVID-19 vaccine was associated with a vaccine effect (VE) of 85% (95% CI 76 to 91) for COVID-19 hospitalisation 28-34 days post-vaccination. A single dose of ChAdOx1 vaccine was associated with a vaccine effect 94% (95% CI 73 to 99) at 28-34 days post-vaccination. VEs increased over time with a peak at 28-34 days post-vaccination for both vaccines. Comparable VEs were seen in those aged ≥80 years for prevention of COVID-19 hospitalisation with a high combined VE of 81% (95% CI 65 to 90) at 28-34 days post-vaccination.

 

[Lynda2475]

vaccine effect against hospitalisation for an entire nation after a single dose of vaccine

Not an "entire nation", so far only front line workers and oldies have been vaccinated in UK.

Is there much South African variant circulating in the UK? This seems to be the big concern with AZ along with the question as to whether any of the vaccines do a decent job of stopping spread not just serious illness. As younger people are generally the spreaders studies on preventing transmission needs to include the much younger cohort, stopping spread is the key to getting international boarders open so we can fly freely again.

 

[jb747]

My apologies if I’ve missed this, but is there any comment anywhere of what happens if the vaccines are mixed, i.e. first dose of one, and then second of another?

 

[Lynda2475]

My apologies if I’ve missed this, but is there any comment anywhere of what happens if the vaccines are mixed, i.e. first dose of one, and then second of another?

I asked about this yesterday (and also a few weeks ago). None of the doctors here responded.

I did read an article yesterday from UK that said it wouldnt be dangerous and if a person didnt know which one they had in first dose or there was none available a second dose of the other vaccine was better than not having a second dose.

Covid-19: Vaccine brands can be mixed in “extremely rare occasions,” says Public Health England

Patients should receive the same type of covid-19 vaccine for their first and second doses, but they could be given different brands if the same vaccine is not available or if there is no record of which vaccine the person received first, Public Health England (PHE) has said. Mary Ramsay, head...

www.bmj.com

Some have suggested it might actually be beneficial and so a study is being done.

Covid trial in UK examines mixing different vaccines

Giving different first and second jabs could offer more flexibility and may offer better protection.

www.bbc.com

Ensuring having different vaccines over time isnt harmful is super important, becuase there should be better vaccines next year than this year, and we need to be able to upgrade our protection and not be stuck having boosters of a lesser vaccine type because of limited supply this year.

 

[drron]

Not an "entire nation", so far only front line workers and oldies have been vaccinated in UK.

Is there much South African variant circulating in the UK? This seems to be the big concern with AZ along with the question as to whether any of the vaccines do a decent job of stopping spread not just serious illness. As younger people are generally the spreaders studies on preventing transmission needs to include the much younger cohort, stopping spread is the key to getting international boarders open so we can fly freely again.

The study is ongoing so will eventually be the entire nation.

And the South African variant has been found in the UK but the latest on it suggests it is not more infectious.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

The problem is the more Covid cases the more variants will occur.

South Africa Study Shows Power of Genomic Surveillance Amid COVID-19 Pandemic

There’s been a considerable research effort underway around the world to monitor the spread of new variants of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. That includes the variant B.1.351 (also kn…

directorsblog.nih.gov

And in India where there are a multitude of variants.Their inactivated Covid virus vaccine seems to be effective against many variants.

Welcome to Precision Vaccinations News

Precision Vaccinations News publishes vaccine news patients can trust to make informed immunization decisions in partnership with doctors, nurses, and pharmacists.

www.coronavirustoday.com

 

[Lynda2475]

I thought the concern with SA varaint wasnt that it was more infectious (even the UK one hasnt really proven to spread any faster here in Aus than earlier varieties, i still think a lot of the UK spread was behaviour driven) but that it was different enough that AZ vaccine couldnt always recognise it, so may not be effective in protecting people shou,d that SA strain become more dominant.

 

[drron]

The AZ vaccine has a reduced response against the SA strain indeed.
But so do the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines - about 1 sixth to 2 thirds the levels of antibodies.

Yet people accept the spin that that is still enough with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines but not the same magnitudes of reduction in antibodies with the AZ vaccine.All we have from Pfizer and Moderna is the lab antibody results and the reduced levals will be effective against the SA variant.But what level of protection? The Oxford researchers are honest and say it will still prevent serious disease with the SA variant.That might be the same with the Pfizer and Moderna jabs and still let them claim it is effective.But why then are they working on updating their vaccines against the SA variant just as Oxford is doing?

Why is it so?