General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[Lynda2475]

Out of the box thinking but this is an emergency, so then why doesn't the government underwrite something?

But is it an emergency? There are 2 people in hospital, and no state of emergency declared in NSW nor nationally.

Cant see the feds guaranteeing no ill effects because they have medical evidence that AZ reactions are real. All the blood clot cases have required hospitalization, most have ended up in ICU and 2 have died.

Typically government puts limits on things, i.e. currently there no commonwealth support for lost hours due to lock down available if you have over $10k in the bank.

I don't trust them to properly value my life. If the guidelines change again, and Pfizer is removed as an option for 40-49s, then I (and many others) wont get vaccinated at all.

With greatest of respect I’ve been reading of those comments coming from anti vaxxers.

I'm not an antivaxxer, so please don't imply this. I have genuine concerns over AZ and don't think it should be being forced onto people because our government overinvested in it. This current outbreak wll be over in under 12 weeks, so AZ is not a magic solution.

I also called my insurer and as an under 50 they have confirmed income protection policy will not pay out if hospitalized from AZ because its not recommended. But I am covered if I get covid whilst waited for the recommended vaccine. If i was over 60 and took AZ I would be covered.

 

[drron]

That may be your hope, but not the hope of many. Many countries have restricted use of AZ, and if option of Pfizer is taken away and people are pushed to AZ then we will see even less people vaccinated.

Those signing a waiver also need to understand that if they have an adverse effect and are unable to work or die, that their income protection insurance and/or life insurance / death benefits may be voided as taking AZ is not recommended if you are under 60.

The over 60 advice is not hard and fast.The decision was made because in Australia there is virtually no risk of covid so even a minimal risk of AZ is not worth it.However if we get to the stage of this outbreak gets to 1000 cases per day the risk benefit equation changes dramatically and it may well be that anyone over 40 would have less risk from having the AZ vaccine than the risk of having Covid.
As John Maynard Keynes said "When the facts change I change my mind.So what will you do?"

So what would you do if the facts change?
An interesting article from the early days of the Pandemic.

Coronavirus: When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind

When COVID-19, aka the Wuhan coronavirus, first emerged, it seemed most likely that the virus would fizzle out. But as the disease continues to spread, that outcome now appears nearly impossible.

www.acsh.org

 

[Must...Fly!]

But is it an emergency?

If it's not an emergency, then why the heck can't I go and see my family who live in the same country?

Cant see the feds guaranteeing no ill effects because they have medical evidence that AZ reactions are real.

Financial guarantee for anyone wanting to take the "risk", not an absolute guarantee of no ill-effects. That's would be a silly guarantee to give, as I'm sure most would agree. Such a guarantee is not offered with ANY vaccine.

 

[Lynda2475]

Financial guarantee for anyone wanting to take the "risk", not an absolute guarantee of no ill-effects.

You'd have to provide that guarantee to everyone getting vaccinated, not just those going against health advice. Wont happen though.

 

[Must...Fly!]

You'd have to provide that guarantee to everyone getting vaccinated, not just those going against health advice. Wont happen though.

Why would the government provide the guarantee where your insurer provides it? You yourself said that your insurer will provide cover for AZ related work absence if over 60. In any case what difference does it make? Do it. Literally spare change down the back of the couch in relation to the money being squandered as we type.

 

[pagingjoan]

But is it an emergency? ...

Is that a serious question?
If it is not, where have the last fifteen months of my life gone?
And the coming year or so looks to be in the same pattern.

And, even then, I am in a much, much better position than so many people, who have lost family members, employment, economic security and so much more.

Not an emergency? Sigh.....

 

[oz_mark]

I don't trust them to properly value my life. If the guidelines change again, and Pfizer is removed as an option for 40-49s, then I (and many others) wont get vaccinated at all.

They already do - from memory it's about $4.9 million. Look up Statistical Value of Life if you are keen!

 

[RAM]

With greatest of respect I’ve been reading of those comments coming from anti vaxxers.

WtGOR that is akin to calling someone an antivaxxer, like labelling someone questioning the level of immigration as a rascist, or someone questioning if CV leaked from the China virai research lab an idiot aka seriously flawed logic.

For example: If you run inside your house with the shopping on a hot day and stop to put the frozen items in the freezer, leaving your front door open then you are not covered for theft by someone walking in the open door - by many if not most home insurance policies. That is called a walk-in not a break-in - as our local Area Commander warned back in the late 1990s. The same goes for an unlocked vehicle.

Car insurance is generally negated if you are found to be above 0.05 or drug impacted - but for some reason this is never widely advertised.

So, without you reading the fine print, to seemingly refute out of hand that you are likely no longer covered by insurance if you sign a waiver for AZ - seems by far the least defensible suggestion.

 

[Princess Fiona]

But is it an emergency? There are 2 people in hospital, and no state of emergency declared in NSW nor nationally.

Cant see the feds guaranteeing no ill effects because they have medical evidence that AZ reactions are real. All the blood clot cases have required hospitalization, most have ended up in ICU and 2 have died.

This is absolutely incorrect.
The majority of the cases are not treated in ICU. There has been 64 cases of confirmed and probable TTS so far in Australia from over 4.2 million doses of the AZ vaccine given.
1 in 4 of those cases require ICU, 2 deaths.
The majority of the cases have been discharged from hospital.
We need to be absolutely clear about our public information both on this forum and elsewhere.

TGA Covid Vaccine Safety Report.

 

[jakeseven7]

This is absolutely incorrect.
The majority of the cases are not treated in ICU. There has been 64 cases of confirmed and probable TTS so far in Australia from over 4.2 million doses of the AZ vaccine given.
1 in 4 of those cases require ICU, 2 deaths.
The majority of the cases have been discharged from hospital.
We need to be absolutely clear about our public information both on this forum and elsewhere.

TGA Covid Vaccine Safety Report.

Don’t let facts get in the way of driving up Pfizer’s share price cough myocarditis, cough pericarditis

 

[Lynda2475]

Why would the government provide the guarantee where your insurer provides it?

No my insurer doesnt provide coverage for AZ for under 60s who go against the health advice. So it is irresponsible to encourage people under 60 to sign a waiver and get AZ when Pfizer is both recommended and available, albeit is a couple of weeks wait at some locations.

Is that a serious question

No a factual statement - there is no declared State of Emergency (SOE) in NSW or nationally. Last SOE was for the bushfires, we never had one for Covid at any point in NSW.

I agree there have been awful impacts for people and many unnecessary economic impacts due to poor decisions closing internal borders, but if it was an emergency one would have been declared. Emergencies by definition are temporary, we have to learn to live with Covid, Covid zero should not be the goal.

 

[jakeseven7]

With greatest of respect I’ve been reading of those comments coming from anti vaxxers.

Mmm hmmm. Touché.

Anyway it appears several members from ATAGI were unable to meet at such short notice - clearly they must be dealing with the other global pandemic or something, destroying another vaccine rollout somewhere else?

 

[Lynda2475]

They already do - from memory it's about $4.9 million. Look up Statistical Value of Life if you are keen!

But they dont pay that out to your estate.

 

[oz_mark]

No a factual statement - there is no declared State of Emergency (SOE) in NSW or nationally. Last SOE was for the bushfires, we never had one for Covid at any point in NSW.

I agree there have been awful impacts for people and many unnecessary economic impacts due to poor decisions closing internal borders, but if it was an emergency one would have been declared. Emergencies by definition are temporary, we have to learn to live with Covid, Covid zero should not be the goal.

There has been a Biosecurity Emergency declared nationally. It's what allows them to institute the travel ban.

 

[Pushka]

No my insurer doesnt provide coverage for AZ for under 60s who go against the health advice. So it is irresponsible to encourage people under 60 to sign a waiver and get AZ when Pfizer is both recommended and available, albeit is a couple of weeks wait at some locations.

Well, I'd ask to see where that is stated in writing in your policy. It won't be.

Post automatically merged: Jun 28, 2021

WtGOR that is akin to calling someone an antivaxxer, like labelling someone questioning the level of immigration as a rascist, or someone questioning if CV leaked from the China virai research lab an idiot aka seriously flawed logic.

For example: If you run inside your house with the shopping on a hot day and stop to put the frozen items in the freezer, leaving your front door open then you are not covered for theft by someone walking in the open door - by many if not most home insurance policies. That is called a walk-in not a break-in - as our local Area Commander warned back in the late 1990s. The same goes for an unlocked vehicle.

Car insurance is generally negated if you are found to be above 0.05 or drug impacted - but for some reason this is never widely advertised.

So, without you reading the fine print, to seemingly refute out of hand that you are likely no longer covered by insurance if you sign a waiver for AZ - seems by far the least defensible suggestion.

I simply stated that I have read similar comments from anti vaxxers who claim that insurance policies etc etc will become invalid if the person is vaccinated. I don't know what WtGOR means and a Google didn't assist.

 

[Lynda2475]

Don’t let facts get in the way of driving up Pfizer’s share price

Australians order are a tiny % globally not likely to impact share price at all. However you benefit through your job if people take the risk on AZ.

So what would you do if the facts change?

I will not get AZ based on my personal risk assessment. The risk of getting Covid does not outweigh the risk of clots in Australia for my circumstance.

If the option of Pfizer is removed, I will stay unvaccinated until Moderna or possibly Novavax (although I want to see real world usage of this at scale elsewhere first).

Well, I'd ask to see where that is stated in writing in your policy. It won't be.

It states if you undertake treatments against medical advice or use drugs you are not covered. It doesn't have to mention covid specifically.

The wording on Health.gov.au remains recommended (not suggested) so insurers will weasel out of payment if they can.

 

[jakeseven7]

Australians order are a tiny % globally not likely to impact share price at all. However you benefit through your job if people take the risk on AZ.

I think you need to take a breath and stop posting completely inaccurate information, as has already been called out by a moderator. Some of what you posted today is actually dangerous if anyone decided to believe you.

This is again completely untrue - in fact my job and employer would be much more secure if no one took any vaccine and the mortality rate soared as we supply hospitals and primary care clinics with medical products and supplies that generally peak when they are busy with acute admissions.

But good try

 

[Seat0B]

So apparently the Health Minster has directed ATAGI to meet ahead of the emergency Nat Cabinet / Nat Security Meeting.

I hope someone is kicking heads, or better some sense into them!

Yes but I think it’s too late now. Imagine the confusion and outrage that will prevail if they revise the recommendations yet again. Speaking as a person of 60.5 years of age (and I have had my first AZ shot), I personallly felt a high degree of reluctance to take AZ - just as we have all said the virus doesn’t respect LGA borders or avoid celebrities, I’m not sure that the clots can tell that I am a few months over the “magic age” that the experts keep shifting around. I am not an anti-vaxxer at all, as I said I’ve had my first AZ, but I actually understand why people might feel spooked with all the chopping and changing. It smacks of panic and lack of leadership.

 

[drron]

Mmm hmmm. Touché.

Anyway it appears several members from ATAGI were unable to meet at such short notice - clearly they must be dealing with the other global pandemic or something, destroying another vaccine rollout somewhere else?

Though at least one is working on their primary job and on call for emergencies.

 

[Lynda2475]

posting completely inaccurate information

You would do well to do the same - stop making accusations with no basis.

I have not said anything dangerous. I may have been wrong about the ICU admission rate for TTS but not re the need for hospital treatment for TTS nor death numbers from TTS.

In fact I am recommending people follow the health advice which is to get Pfizer if under 50 or between 50-59 and have not yet started AZ.

You are the one who wants under 50s to disregard health advice and get AZ.