General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[VPS]

Covid testing

 

[ethernet]

Two differing points of view re booster shots.Israel says soon,US says maybe likely

Pfizer, Israel strike a deal: New COVID vaccines set to arrive August 1

As Israel continues to register a high number of daily cases, the Health Ministry opens up third vaccine shot for immunocompromised patients.

www.jpost.com

Pfizer to discuss COVID-19 vaccine booster with US officials

Pfizer says it plans to meet Monday with top U.S. health officials to discuss the drugmaker’s request for federal authorization of a third dose of its COVID-19 vaccine.

apnews.com

Note in the USA only 48% are fully vaccinated.

 

[ethernet]

Drron will like this, and other posts by John Campbell comparing UK Vs USA. It seems AZ is superior to Pfizer where Delta is the predominant strain, with qualifications. Again, with Delta, it is important to space the doses wider apart 8-12 weeks. For both vaccines. (Israel did not(3 weeks?, but UK and Canada are/did increase the interval). This implies ATAGI will be in an uncomfortable spot, and urgently need to make the recommendation for non-hotspots, to increase the intervals where they can, and only go early if they think their odds are not good or over 70.

Australia can get greater value out of limited Pfizer by extending the booster interval, and mix;n;match. Those who had short interval boosters - will need another booster. Knowing how bad long covid, and asymptomatic covid is, I am happier about my AZ shots. Privately I add a silent 14-21 days onto the booster jab date. I also believe in Vit D and Zinc reduce risks/ increase efficacy.

NDIS will be a bigger trainwreck is long covid causes more leaner's to bludge on the public purse.

I think the 2nd takehome message, is for international flights, how long between shots is an important factor. I suggest quarantine for 5 days after landing, test, then being allowed to home quarantine or move to lower risk accom is probably a fair compromise. Obviously those who had closely administered boosters, should spend more time, while early AZ takers given more benefits.

The qualification is deaths and serious sickness are reduced by both. We need to run some effective hurry up campaigns.

 

[drron]

Indeed if people bothered to read the ATAGI reports instead of just the media grabs it has never said AZ is an ineffective or inferior vaccine.The recommendation for Pfizer first for under 50s then for under 60s was based on an assessment of risk of covid v risk of blood clots.If there was an outbreak of large numbers the recommendation was always going to change.The Sydney outbreak brings that message home in a grim fashion.More people have now died in this outbreak than from the clots.

Then for the people who believe the US is doing so much better than us in the vaccine rollout.


The daily numbers of vaccine jabs started to decline when the fully vaccinated numbers reached 25%.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Indeed if people bothered to read the ATAGI reports instead of just the media grabs it has never said AZ is an ineffective or inferior vaccine.The recommendation for Pfizer first for under 50s then for under 60s was based on an assessment of risk of covid v risk of blood clots.If there was an outbreak of large numbers the recommendation was always going to change.The Sydney outbreak brings that message home in a grim fashion.More people have now died in this outbreak than from the clots.

Then for the people who believe the US is doing so much better than us in the vaccine rollout.
View attachment 254069

The daily numbers of vaccine jabs started to decline when the fully vaccinated numbers reached 25%.

National level statistics don't tell the whole story

In the US, vaccination has become a polarising issue.

From a news.com.au reporter in the US

How the US blew its chance on covid

A few months ago, the United States seemed well on its way to beating Covid-19.

www.news.com.au

 

[burmans]

Well 50% is still better than 15% but I agree well short of what’s needed. No guarantee Australia won’t do the same, the US are far from alone on this, though their numbers are probably the most miserable.

 

[ethernet]

I prefer honesty. AZ WAS past tense, looked to most, an inferior vaccine, with a slower to 'fully vaccinated' pathway. Delta is a game changer, and they are now neck and neck I would even say Pifzer is inferior, if the booster date is not delayed, where Delta is the 98% predominant strain.
Most people not getting the jab believe 'other people' will get sick or die, and have no idea what long covid is. However slick marketing has made the wrong message stick.

I know smart, rich/educated people are traveling 70+ kms to get ANY jab straight away, before panic sets in. Especially AZ. There is no benefit holding out for Pifzer. The Commonweath has NOT communicated -There needs to be a 'Things have changed' commercial, with a sixty minutes style clock ticking away with the message 'No time to wait - get vaccinated or suffer the consequences'

I hate the idea of USA style covid lottery prizes, but feel they are cost effective and need to start immediately, now. Social media should then vote on what the winner deserves from a prizepool.

 

[OZDUCK]

This is the sort of response that may occur in Australia if a significant portion of the population refuse to be vaccinated. It is beginning to cause a lot of angst among those in the US who are vaccinated and want a return to a somewhat 'normal' lifestyle.

As Virus Cases Rise, Another Contagion Spreads Among the Vaccinated: Anger

 

[mviy]

Well as someone with just one dose who feels practically every adult in Australia has had plenty of opportunity to get at least one shot I can certainly understand the views in that article.

 

[Pushka]

This is the sort of response that may occur in Australia if a significant portion of the population refuse to be vaccinated. It is beginning to cause a lot of angst among those in the US who are vaccinated and want a return to a somewhat 'normal' lifestyle.

As Virus Cases Rise, Another Contagion Spreads Among the Vaccinated: Anger

Paywalled but I'm certainly angry with 60+ people who are at no more risk than anyone else refusing to be vaccinated with AZ. The excuses I'm hearing on SA Health FB page are just nonsensical. I have gout. I have high blood pressure. I am being discriminated because of age. I want a choice. Blah blah.

 

[drron]

An interesting article from Piers Morgan who got covid after being vaccinated and the threats from anti-vaxxers that he recived by urging people to be vaccinated.

PIERS MORGAN: America's anti-vaxxer lunatics must be stopped

To win the war on covid, we need to go to war on the anti-vaxxers - shut them down, get them off the airwaves, ban them from social media, and urgently re-educate their brainwashed followers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Paywalled but I'm certainly angry with 60+ people who are at no more risk than anyone else refusing to be vaccinated with AZ. The excuses I'm hearing on SA Health FB page are just nonsensical. I have gout. I have high blood pressure. I am being discriminated because of age. I want a choice. Blah blah.

Non-paywalled copy I guess.

As Virus Cases Rise, Another Contagion Spreads Among the Vaccinated: Anger

As coronavirus cases resurge across the country, many inoculated Americans are losing patience with vaccine holdouts who, they say, are neglecting a civic duty or clinging to conspiracy theories and misinformation even as new patients arrive in emergency rooms and the nation renews mask...

www.yahoo.com

Anger doesn't help the situation. Half the article is about people being angry. It just promotes a me v them - or right v wrong discussion, which in the current situation is not helpful.

There was some good constructive passages, which I will extract.

On Monday, Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York City ordered that all municipal workers be vaccinated against COVID-19 by the time schools reopen in mid-September or face weekly testing. Officials in California followed suit hours later with a similar mandate covering all state employees and health care workers.

(My comment: its something Australian officials should consider - if you are unvaccinated in say 2022 and get positive from the routine testing, you need to access personal sick leave (for the 14 days isolation) or go leave without pay and no access to the pandemic financial supports.)

She suggested health insurers link coverage of hospital bills to immunization. “If you choose not to be part of the solution, then you should be accountable for the consequences,” she said.

(My comment: many have suggested Medicare surcharge, but I don't know how that would work for low income families/earners)

Though often seen as a conservative phenomenon [in the US], vaccine hesitancy and refusal occur across the political and cultural spectrum in the United States, and for a variety of reasons. No single argument can address all of these concerns, and changing minds is often a slow, individualized process.

...

Rising resentment among the vaccinated may well lead to public support for more coercive requirements, including mandates, but experts warn that punitive measures and social ostracism can backfire, shutting down dialogue and outreach efforts.

...

“Anything that reduces the opportunity for honest dialogue and an opportunity for persuasion is not a good thing,” said Stephen Thomas, a professor of health policy and management at University of Maryland School of Public Health. “We are already in isolated, siloed information systems, where people are in their own echo chambers.”

...

Gentle persuasion and persistent prodding persuaded Dorrett Denton, a 62-year-old home health aide in Queens, to be vaccinated in February. Her employer urged Denton repeatedly to be immunized, but in the end, it was her doctor who convinced her.

“She says to me: ‘You’ve been coming to me from 1999. How many times did I do surgery on you, and your life was in my hands? You trust me with your life, don’t you?’” Denton recalled.

“I said, ‘Yes, Doctor.’ She said, ‘Well, trust me on this one.’”

 

[VPS]

An interesting article from Piers Morgan who got covid after being vaccinated and the threats from anti-vaxxers that he recived by urging people to be vaccinated.

PIERS MORGAN: America's anti-vaxxer lunatics must be stopped

To win the war on covid, we need to go to war on the anti-vaxxers - shut them down, get them off the airwaves, ban them from social media, and urgently re-educate their brainwashed followers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Quite balanced coming from him

 

[Pushka]

Non-paywalled copy I guess.

As Virus Cases Rise, Another Contagion Spreads Among the Vaccinated: Anger

As coronavirus cases resurge across the country, many inoculated Americans are losing patience with vaccine holdouts who, they say, are neglecting a civic duty or clinging to conspiracy theories and misinformation even as new patients arrive in emergency rooms and the nation renews mask...

www.yahoo.com

Anger doesn't help the situation. Half the article is about people being angry. It just promotes a me v them - or right v wrong discussion, which in the current situation is not helpful.

There was some good constructive passages, which I will extract.

On Monday, Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York City ordered that all municipal workers be vaccinated against COVID-19 by the time schools reopen in mid-September or face weekly testing. Officials in California followed suit hours later with a similar mandate covering all state employees and health care workers.

(My comment: its something Australian officials should consider - if you are unvaccinated in say 2022 and get positive from the routine testing, you need to access personal sick leave (for the 14 days isolation) or go leave without pay and no access to the pandemic financial supports.)

She suggested health insurers link coverage of hospital bills to immunization. “If you choose not to be part of the solution, then you should be accountable for the consequences,” she said.

(My comment: many have suggested Medicare surcharge, but I don't know how that would work for low income families/earners)

Though often seen as a conservative phenomenon [in the US], vaccine hesitancy and refusal occur across the political and cultural spectrum in the United States, and for a variety of reasons. No single argument can address all of these concerns, and changing minds is often a slow, individualized process.

...

Rising resentment among the vaccinated may well lead to public support for more coercive requirements, including mandates, but experts warn that punitive measures and social ostracism can backfire, shutting down dialogue and outreach efforts.

...

“Anything that reduces the opportunity for honest dialogue and an opportunity for persuasion is not a good thing,” said Stephen Thomas, a professor of health policy and management at University of Maryland School of Public Health. “We are already in isolated, siloed information systems, where people are in their own echo chambers.”

...

Gentle persuasion and persistent prodding persuaded Dorrett Denton, a 62-year-old home health aide in Queens, to be vaccinated in February. Her employer urged Denton repeatedly to be immunized, but in the end, it was her doctor who convinced her.

“She says to me: ‘You’ve been coming to me from 1999. How many times did I do surgery on you, and your life was in my hands? You trust me with your life, don’t you?’” Denton recalled.

“I said, ‘Yes, Doctor.’ She said, ‘Well, trust me on this one.’”

Well I have no power whatsoever to implement additional health care costs to non vaccinated, nor prevent border closures when people put themselves at risk, when the nation pauses for a death of an elderly non vaccinated person, when people refuse to listen to medical advice yet those who have taken responsibility all get lumped in the same way then I’ll get angry.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Well I have no power whatsoever to implement additional health care costs to non vaccinated, nor prevent border closures when people put themselves at risk, when the nation pauses for a death of an elderly non vaccinated person, when people refuse to listen to medical advice yet those who have taken responsibility all get lumped in the same way then I’ll get angry.

One of the little ones in the HFF household/extended family watches Daniel Tiger.

One of the songs is "Its ok to be angry, its not not not ok to hurt someone"

So I say its OK to be angry and frustrated - a lot of us are in the echo chamber. But I guess we need to get perspective on where we are at in Australia.

More relevant for the Australian vaccine thread - but NSW authorities indicated that their weekly vaccine capacity is 350,000. Say you uplift that for discussion purposes (its probably higher) by around 30% to add in GP and pharmac_ channels - giving around 470,000 capacity. NSW authorities has a target of 10m jabs (80% of 18+ I believe) and say there are 8m left to give to meet that goal. At full usage of capacity, it will take at least 18 weeks. Of course there is still supply constraints with Pfizer (Astra Zeneca possibly unlikely)

The good thing about the current Sydney outbreak is the increase in vaccine urgency with some small ripples in the rest of Australia. I'm sure a lot of Sydneysiders complying with the stay at home orders are angry and frustrated with those not complying (quite often 60%of positive cases are out while infectious, many are critical workers).

Hopefully the corner turns for vaccines in Australia and Sydney's lockdown.

I love Flyingmermaid with the everlasting optimistic outlook and neverending gentle persuasion

 

[ethernet]

Ok, I hit the jackpot predicting the NSW lockdown weeks in advance. Now builders/subbies got a strike. If it hits 256 day cases, it will probably be TWO months. If the protest gets off, +8 days to see numbers,so about 2 weeks from today, will prove what the Victorian is going off about, even if contact tracers excel. The highly mobile 20-29 yo age group will hammer geo-fencing.

I hear the planned October snap election is now OFF (no second source yet). Now thorny issues like compulsory vaccination, making the unvaccinated pay for tests, if the want to work or travel, and cutting benefits for those who make unwise decisions. And Israel like green cards. Maybe death duties for those who die of Covid, if unvaccinated(some medical exclusions). So easy to avoid!

Part of the blame, is weak, insipid Covid infomercials , part vaccine snobbery. The most offensive is that Billy Boofhead thinks one jab, and in 24 hours he is good to go. Not that it takes two full months to get some protection against Delta. I dont think the public knows this. All commercials that would have a ticking clock were presumably dumped, because those under Forty would resent this.

Canada and Israel prove getting over 70% vaccinated is hard. Thus to save lives, it is important to inject urgency into this national emergency. Scomo can earn some credits by dropping lines about 'Lockdowns are dreadful, businesses and jobs are being destroyed, because some gallahs are afraid or too lazy to get a jab. No, these bludgers can wear the part of the cost and pain they inflict on others and the community. The measures treasury announce today will save lives, so
that's what will happen. blah blah.

 

[Lynda2475]

NSW authorities indicated that their weekly vaccine capacity is 350,000

I understoof that to be the the Pfizer capacity, State administerd total doses wil rise with hubs offering AZ to all from tomorrow. Also note that both Premier and Health MInister said they have greater capacity to administer more if they had supply.

MRNA supply is still the biggest constraint.

 

[jb747]

This is the sort of response that may occur in Australia if a significant portion of the population refuse to be vaccinated. It is beginning to cause a lot of angst among those in the US who are vaccinated and want a return to a somewhat 'normal' lifestyle.

But the USA would seem to have issues that don’t necessarily exist here. It has been politicised to a huge degree, with a large part of one side of politics believing it’s all a hoax, or perhaps that their version of god won’t let them catch it. Whilst I don’t necessarily like our politicians all that much, none seem to be as utterly divisive as their last president, and as best I can tell, most of ours are one board with the idea of vaccination. There may be one particular person from Qld who isn’t, but then she didn’t listen to the explanation.

I think we’ll have to go the French route, with non vaccinated excluded from much of life. It would be their choice for themselves, as opposed to the alternative of them being able to choose for everyone else. I was expecting one of the changes to the Vic/NSW border could well be a requirement to be vaccinated to be allowed to cross. I fully expect that to happen at some point.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

The good thing about the current Sydney outbreak is the increase in vaccine urgency with some small ripples in the rest of Australia.

I am so, so hoping that with it now so obvious that covid cases will happen, that AZ vaccinations will greatly rise, as the whole risk argument was badly misrepresented. The focus on risk to an individual was always a deeply flawed. Vaccinations programs work by looking at them from a whole of community perspective.

This is the quickest way for not just Greater Sydney, but for all of Australia, to reduce the worst outcomes from getting infected from Covid19 is for AZ to be embraced by those now eligible to have it. .

The community at large needs to act by getting vaccinated with what is available now, and with what works very well. Pfizer and AZ both work very well, but only AZ is currently abundantly available.

Over the next several weeks we will see if we the people in Australia are wiling to act by the very simple task of getting vaccinated with what is available, or whether all the unnecessary misery, and life -interrupted, will last much longer than it should.

 

[Ric]

Quite balanced coming from him

Agreed. Maybe Covid mellowed him?