General COVID-19 Vaccine Discussion

[RAM]

It seems The Age article (shown in several posts above) is open to anyone to view (no paywall).

If you haven't read it - please do.

It makes VERY sombre reading, especially the 2nd half of the article.

"...acknowledged Tuesday that vaccinated people with so-called breakthrough infections of the Delta variant carry just as much virus in their nose and throat as unvaccinated people."

"The agency’s document relies on data from multiple studies, including an analysis of a recent outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts, which began after the town’s Fourth of July (Sunday)festivities. By Thursday, that cluster had grown to 882 cases. About 74 per cent were vaccinated, local health officials have said."

So the Pfizer vaccine continues to provide protection against serious immediate CV illness (& death) but appears to have no impact in reducing viral load vs unvaccinated. So everybody is as contagious as anyone else regardless of vaccination status.

Now where can I invest in comfortable mask manufacturers?

With a lot of luck, an enhanced vaccine may deal with this viral load wildcard.

 

[jonboixxx]

So the Pfizer vaccine continues to provide protection against serious immediate CV illness (& death) but appears to have no impact in reducing viral load vs unvaccinated. So everybody is as contagious as anyone else regardless of vaccination status.

Nah, you are wrong again. I can't find the article reference you talk of, but the quote clearly talks about "breakthrough infections".

There is so much nonsense on AFF that passes as medical information.

 

[serfty]

Nah, you are wrong again. I can't find the article reference you talk of, but the quote clearly talks about "breakthrough infections".

There is so much nonsense on AFF that passes as medical information.

Yes, "breakthrough" - those 10%ish of the vaccinated who may still contract COVID-19.

 

[Flying mermaid]

It seems The Age article (shown in several posts above) is open to anyone to view (no paywall).

If you haven't read it - please do.

It makes VERY sombre reading, especially the 2nd half of the article.

"...acknowledged Tuesday that vaccinated people with so-called breakthrough infections of the Delta variant carry just as much virus in their nose and throat as unvaccinated people."

"The agency’s document relies on data from multiple studies, including an analysis of a recent outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts, which began after the town’s Fourth of July (Sunday)festivities. By Thursday, that cluster had grown to 882 cases. About 74 per cent were vaccinated, local health officials have said."

So the Pfizer vaccine continues to provide protection against serious immediate CV illness (& death) but appears to have no impact in reducing viral load vs unvaccinated. So everybody is as contagious as anyone else regardless of vaccination status.

Now where can I invest in comfortable mask manufacturers?

With a lot of luck, an enhanced vaccine may deal with this viral load wildcard.

What a lot of scare mongering. Your red high lighting is just arrant nonsense.

 

[sjk]

"...acknowledged Tuesday that vaccinated people with so-called breakthrough infections of the Delta variant carry just as much virus in their nose and throat as unvaccinated people."

(…)

So the Pfizer vaccine continues to provide protection against serious immediate CV illness (& death) but appears to have no impact in reducing viral load vs unvaccinated. So everybody is as contagious as anyone else regardless of vaccination status.

Your logic is completely flawed, making your conclusion ridiculous.

You need to allow for the existence of “vaccinated people with*out* so-called breakthrough infections”, of which there are many.

Unless you have some weird agenda, of course.

 

[Ric]

And you think that's because people don't know how to wear masks correctly or just choose not to?

For down below the nose > choose not to and for the big gaps between the nose bridge > most likely do not know how to bend the metal to shape to the face anatomy.

 

[RAM]

---

Nah, you are wrong again. I can't find the article reference you talk of, but the quote clearly talks about "breakthrough infections".

The article you couldn't locate, as I mentioned in my post is included a few posts above mine (4,122), but as you were unable to locate them - the links are in posts 4,111, 4112 & 4,113 if you would like to read it.

There is so much nonsense on AFF that passes as medical information.

I totally agree. What do you think a 'break through' infection is?

You seem to misunderstand the terminology.

By definition a 'break through infection' is somebody who is fully vaccinated who subsequently contracts CV.

Up until recently the conventional wisdom, that we keep hearing in media briefings, was that if you are fully vaccinated then that helps to protect others as it massively reduces the ability to infect others.

Recent studies looking into the Delta Variant suggest that being vaccinated may make zero difference to your ability to spread it to others. This is what the CDC has been looking into.

The Age article references information from the US Center for Disease Control - I think that passes as a credible source. Although the CDC has stopped recording breakthrough infections (since early June IIRC) for those who do not require hospitalisation - which massively understates the current level of breakthrough infections.

The CDC documents report that fully vaccinated people (break through infections) carry just as high a viral load of the delta variant as the unvaccinated.

Spoiler: Stuff

That it does not suit the previous narrative though, and just as Biden attacked both the Washington Post & NY Times for reporting it, does not change what the CDC has found. Unfortunately.

What a lot of scare mongering. Your red high lighting is just arrant nonsense.

Please explain, why the CDC's findings are utter nonsense - highlighted or not?

Perhaps, as some days have gone by & Dr Fauci has endorsed the CDC's findings & change of recommendation for all people, vaccinated or not, to start wearing masks again when out to stop transmission, you may wish to re-think your stance.

Your logic is completely flawed, making your conclusion ridiculous. You need to allow for the existence of “vaccinated people with*out* so-called breakthrough infections”, of which there are many.

How a vaccinated person, who is asymptomatic, know they have a high viral load vs one who is not as you are walking around without a mask exercising as is allowed in our 'harshest ever' (not really) lockdown in Sydney?

Until then given how 1 case of Delta can grow to over 3,000 in NSW with 15 deaths - then the narrative should change to reflect the newly revealed evidence from the CDC. If subsequently found to be an exception then no harm done, if ignorred as inconvenient as has been the NSW approach for this outbreak and is actually the new reality - then hundreds if not thousands of people are being placed needlessly at risk.

Perhaps this may explain some of the near 1,100 mystery cases that NSW cannot find a source for or the 13 others they have given up on after 28 days of failing to find a source since June 16. Now with nearly 1,000 people assigned to contact tracing for NSW the number of mystery cases continues to grow, not fall.

Since the June 16 outbreak, NSW Health has found the sources for 23 out of just under 1,100 chains or a 98% failure rate currently.
With the NSW December outbreaks it was 100% of mystery cases (13 unlinked chains) never identified.

Regardless of whether it is postive or negative news - for the community to have any confidence in the Vaccine rollout then the unvarnished truth must be presentedinstead of censored spin.

 

[jonboixxx]

The article you couldn't locate, as I mentioned in my post is included a few posts above mine (4,122), but as you were unable to locate them - the links are in posts 4,111, 4112 & 4,113 if you would like to read it.

I totally agree. What do you think a 'break through' infection is?

You seem to misunderstand the terminology.

By definition a 'break through infection' is somebody who is fully vaccinated who subsequently contracts CV.

Here we go again! Are you seriously trying to defend the indefensible again.
I don't misunderstand the terminology of break through infection. That is why I clearly called you out again on your ignorance of medical information and your repeated misinformation.

This is what you wrote and again, it is more of your sheer misinterpreted nonsense;

So the Pfizer vaccine continues to provide protection against serious immediate CV illness (& death) but appears to have no impact in reducing viral load vs unvaccinated. So everybody is as contagious as anyone else regardless of vaccination status.

Your post in #4122 actually has a health.gov.au warning against it. Do you still stand by what you wrote and highlighted above, because that was what I was calling out, but you insist on more misconstrued nonsense, in your wildly collated rantings?

Keep posting dangerous rubbish presented as fact and I (and others) will keep calling you out on it.

 

[Princess Fiona]

The article you couldn't locate, as I mentioned in my post is included a few posts above mine (4,122), but as you were unable to locate them - the links are in posts 4,111, 4112 & 4,113 if you would like to read it.

I totally agree. What do you think a 'break through' infection is?

You seem to misunderstand the terminology.

By definition a 'break through infection' is somebody who is fully vaccinated who subsequently contracts CV.

Up until recently the conventional wisdom, that we keep hearing in media briefings, was that if you are fully vaccinated then that helps to protect others as it massively reduces the ability to infect others.

Recent studies looking into the Delta Variant suggest that being vaccinated may make zero difference to your ability to spread it to others. This is what the CDC has been looking into.

The Age article references information from the US Center for Disease Control - I think that passes as a credible source. Although the CDC has stopped recording breakthrough infections (since early June IIRC) for those who do not require hospitalisation - which massively understates the current level of breakthrough infections.

The CDC documents report that fully vaccinated people (break through infections) carry just as high a viral load of the delta variant as the unvaccinated.

That it does not suit the previous narrative though, and just as Biden attacked both the Washington Post & NY Times for reporting it, does not change what the CDC has found. Unfortunately.

Please explain, why the CDC's findings are utter nonsense - highlighted or not?

Perhaps, as some days have gone by & Dr Fauci has endorsed the CDC's findings & change of recommendation for all people, vaccinated or not, to start wearing masks again when out to stop transmission, you may wish to re-think your stance.

How a vaccinated person, who is asymptomatic, know they have a high viral load vs one who is not as you are walking around without a mask exercising as is allowed in our 'harshest ever' (not really) lockdown in Sydney?

Until then given how 1 case of Delta can grow to over 3,000 in NSW with 15 deaths - then the narrative should change to reflect the newly revealed evidence from the CDC. If subsequently found to be an exception then no harm done, if ignorred as inconvenient as has been the NSW approach for this outbreak and is actually the new reality - then hundreds if not thousands of people are being placed needlessly at risk.

Perhaps this may explain some of the near 1,100 mystery cases that NSW cannot find a source for or the 13 others they have given up on after 28 days of failing to find a source since June 16. Now with nearly 1,000 people assigned to contact tracing for NSW the number of mystery cases continues to grow, not fall.

Since the June 16 outbreak, NSW Health has found the sources for 23 out of just under 1,100 chains or a 98% failure rate currently.
With the NSW December outbreaks it was 100% of mystery cases (13 unlinked chains) never identified.

Regardless of whether it is postive or negative news - for the community to have any confidence in the Vaccine rollout then the unvarnished truth must be presented instead of censored spin.

I’ll say in a sentence or two what the key messages are.


Vaccination protects against serious illness and death from Covid.
The sooner we get our country vaccinated, the sooner we get to live our lives fully and completely again.

Anything else is just waffle.

 

[Flying mermaid]

Here we go again! Are you seriously trying to defend the indefensible again.
I don't misunderstand the terminology of break through infection. That is why I clearly called you out again on your ignorance of medical information and your repeated misinformation.

This is what you wrote and again, it is more of your sheer misinterpreted nonsense;

Your post in #4122 actually has a health.gov.au warning against it. Do you still stand by what you wrote and highlighted above, because that was what I was calling out, but you insist on more misconstrued nonsense, in your wildly collated rantings?

Keep posting dangerous rubbish presented as fact and I (and others) will keep calling you out on it.

To be honest I try not to engage with him anymore, but that one made me see as red as his highlighting.

 

[Pushka]

I am constantly amazed, no maddened, by the people who say you can still test positive after vaccination, like they've just discovered the answer to life. Doh. We know that, that was never the plan. Maybe Princess Fiona just needs to get onto the media to cut through the cough that idiots keep posting as a deterrent to getting vaccinated. On FB I respond each time I see such a post on the SA Health website.

 

[jase05]

Some interesting results emerging from Israel, will be interesting to see data from AZ. Would be a real twist in the tale if AZ ends up offering longer efficacy

Israel sees waning coronavirus vaccine effectiveness - The Boston Globe

Half of the infections in Israel now are among the fully vaccinated, and public health officials are beginning to see signs of more serious disease among them, said Sharon Alroy-Preis, the nation’s Director of Public Health Services.

www.bostonglobe.com

 

[jakeseven7]

Some interesting results emerging from Israel, will be interesting to see data from AZ. Would be a real twist in the tale if AZ ends up offering longer efficacy

Israel sees waning coronavirus vaccine effectiveness - The Boston Globe

Half of the infections in Israel now are among the fully vaccinated, and public health officials are beginning to see signs of more serious disease among them, said Sharon Alroy-Preis, the nation’s Director of Public Health Services.

www.bostonglobe.com

This has come up a few times that AZ protection appears to last longer however both Pfizer and AZ are both excellent options and Australians should avail themselves of whatever vaccine they can get - tomorrow! Just do something people!

 

[Pushka]

Some interesting results emerging from Israel, will be interesting to see data from AZ. Would be a real twist in the tale if AZ ends up offering longer efficacy

Israel sees waning coronavirus vaccine effectiveness - The Boston Globe

Half of the infections in Israel now are among the fully vaccinated, and public health officials are beginning to see signs of more serious disease among them, said Sharon Alroy-Preis, the nation’s Director of Public Health Services.

www.bostonglobe.com

All eyes on the UK then who used AZ exclusively? in the early stages.

 

[hydrabyss]

Some interesting results emerging from Israel, will be interesting to see data from AZ. Would be a real twist in the tale if AZ ends up offering longer efficacy

Israel sees waning coronavirus vaccine effectiveness - The Boston Globe

Half of the infections in Israel now are among the fully vaccinated, and public health officials are beginning to see signs of more serious disease among them, said Sharon Alroy-Preis, the nation’s Director of Public Health Services.

www.bostonglobe.com

I wonder if it is due to the longer time frame between shots between the two. I did read Canada stretched their second pfizer shot out beyond 3 weeks in a rush to get everyone one shot. But that was due to shortage of supply so will be interesting to see if it makes a difference down the track.

 

[RAM]

I’ll say in a sentence or two what the key messages are.


Vaccination protects against serious illness and death from Covid.
The sooner we get our country vaccinated, the sooner we get to live our lives fully and completely again.

Anything else is just waffle.

Anything that does not suit your narrative that is.

You are happy to overlook the CDC warning that the Delta Variant appears to generate a massively high (greater than any previous variant or original CV strain) viral load in fully vaccinated people thus making them potential super spreaders.

I never disputed nor mentioned anything about vaccines lowering death rates nor the rate of serious illness in the vaccinated.

Or do you dispute the CDC as a credible source of information?

As to your claim (hope) that once the country is highly vaccinated....

Previously the Federal Govt has made the commitment to getting life back to the way it was several times. Perhaps those announcements have been forgotten?

Such as if everybody downloaded the Fed Govt's Covid App which was going to see borders opened, etc etc.?
Or all 'stranded Australians home by Xmas (2022 was it)?

The evidence to date has been moving goal posts, or using Financial Market terminology - "Good 'til close".

Or all Australians stranded overseas home by Xmas 2020 (not Xmas 2022)?

 

[jakeseven7]

Anything that does not suit your narrative that is.

You are happy to overlook the CDC warning that the Delta Variant appears to generate a massively high (greater than any previous variant or original CV strain) viral load in fully vaccinated people thus making them potential super spreaders.

I never disputed nor mentioned anything about vaccines lowering death rates nor the rate of serious illness in the vaccinated.

Or do you dispute the CDC as a credible source of information?

As to your claim (hope) that once the country is highly vaccinated....

Previously the Federal Govt has made the commitment to getting life back to the way it was several times. Perhaps those announcements have been forgotten?

Such as if everybody downloaded the Fed Govt's Covid App which was going to see borders opened, etc etc.?
Or all 'stranded Australians home by Xmas (2022 was it)?

The evidence to date has been moving goal posts, or using Financial Market terminology - "Good 'til close".

Or all Australians stranded overseas home by Xmas 2020 (not Xmas 2022)?

What are you talking about? The app was never linked to borders opening? You’ve totally lost me again..

 

[RAM]

Here we go again! Are you seriously trying to defend the indefensible again.
I don't misunderstand the terminology of break through infection. That is why I clearly called you out again on your ignorance of medical information and your repeated misinformation.

This is what you wrote and again, it is more of your sheer misinterpreted nonsense;

Your post in #4122 actually has a health.gov.au warning against it. Do you still stand by what you wrote and highlighted above, because that was what I was calling out, but you insist on more misconstrued nonsense, in your wildly collated rantings?

Keep posting dangerous rubbish presented as fact and I (and others) will keep calling you out on it.

As usual you resort to rant instead of providing any detail of exactly what you dispute as it does not suit your point of view.

What exactly are you calling out? Nothing in your post cites anything specific?

In your response to my initial post:

1. You said you searched but could not find the article I refered to. (Credibility = 1/10). So I provided the location for you.
2. What is someone who has been fully vaccinated & subsequently catches CV called? Do you dispute that is known as a "Break through infection"?
3. Yes I stand by what I wrote, referencing the CDC's findings, I give them greater credence than your detailess 'rants'.
4. What exactly, please detail, is the 'dangerous rubbish' you dispute?

You have not dealt with one question asked in my post responding to your previous post.

Yes, several people complained to the moderators about the post.

Posting a direct quote from The Age article is hard to argue with, yet several keep trying.

As the CDC is the peak US body, perhaps as a bone for those who's narrative is not suited by the CDC reports - a reference was added by the Moderators stating that some dispute the post & here's a link to the Australian Govt web site.

That does not change what the CDC's documents have raised - that unlike other variants, Delta appears to create just as high a viral load in the fully vaccinated who catch it as those who are unvaccinated & catch it.

Making fully vaccinated 'break through infected people' just as able to spread the Delta variant as an unvaccinated infected individual.
That is new news which should warrant further study as it contradicts the current messaging about people who are fully vaccinated being very unlikely to spread Covid.
_____________________________________________

The parallels with the earlier 'flat earth' misinformation that Covid could not be spread from person to person, then it that it was not spread by aerosol but much larger particles - all were shown to be fatally flawed assertions.

If the CDC's current documents are correct then no longer will it be claimed that the fully vaccinated are far lesss likely to spread covid vs the unvaccinated.

So yes, I stand by my original post, that if this is fully confirmed then it is unfortunate.

 

[sjk]

Head of the CDC:

"But again, I want to reiterate, we believe the vast majority of transmission is occurring in unvaccinated people and through unvaccinated people."

The End.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Anything that does not suit your narrative that is.

You are happy to overlook the CDC warning that the Delta Variant appears to generate a massively high (greater than any previous variant or original CV strain) viral load in fully vaccinated people thus making them potential super spreaders.

I never disputed nor mentioned anything about vaccines lowering death rates nor the rate of serious illness in the vaccinated.

Or do you dispute the CDC as a credible source of information?

As to your claim (hope) that once the country is highly vaccinated....

Previously the Federal Govt has made the commitment to getting life back to the way it was several times. Perhaps those announcements have been forgotten?

Such as if everybody downloaded the Fed Govt's Covid App which was going to see borders opened, etc etc.?
Or all 'stranded Australians home by Xmas (2022 was it)?

The evidence to date has been moving goal posts, or using Financial Market terminology - "Good 'til close".

Or all Australians stranded overseas home by Xmas 2020 (not Xmas 2022)?

I’m not disputing what the CDC is saying.

I couldn’t care less what the Federal Govt is or isn’t promising.

I’m staying on my public health message.
Vaccines save lives.

We have two vaccines available in Australia right now that can do just that.
Everyone should go out and get the jab done.